I am coming to the conclusion that it is possible to “manage” a nnsdapp created neuron (aka NCN) that made use of internet identity through a seed phrase created neuron (aka SPN) (writeup to follow). The management is broadly defined as spawning, maturity merging, dissolving etc.
The SPN would need to submit a proposal to the NCN to accommodate that management. I can do this today with dfx.
If we were to have such functionality integrated (submit proposal) into the ledger, then it would solve a thorny issue for several folks (@Roman , @LightningLad91 etc ) who need to risk mitigate the use of Internet Identity for managing their store of value through different means.
@mparikh, this is what one calls genius. You are just incredible mate. Sorry for my English, maybe I don’t understand, but Is what you say about use the new ledger integration ?
As you know, when I was asking to @ismaelhaider if I will be able to use Ledger for my already staked neuron, he said to me :
If you staked your neurons using the NNS dapp, then no .
If you staked your neurons using a seed phrase that you generated yourself (e.g. using keysmith ) then yes .
The problem is that I am in the first case, so I never generated any seedphrase. I created an internet Identity directly through the nns dapp.
Indeed, I am not a seed investor. I entered into ICP in may, so I have a casual neuron created through my II.
It is true that you have created “iNCNs” ( nnsdapp created neurons using internet identity). You have staked significant ICP in those iNCNs. I am in the same boat.
Now I wish to “manage” those iNCNs through seed phrase generated neurons (SPNs); bypassing Internet Identity altogether. The definition of management is in above post.
In my to-be writeup, I demonstrate how it is possible to achieve 2. The solution is messy and not for everyone. It also involves setting up an airgapped machine. But the overall point is that it works. One core part of that solution is to submit proposal from one neuron to another.
Note: there’s nothing preventing you from creating seed phrases today.
In the context of this topic, if ledger could support submitting proposals for a neuron, IN THE future, someone could build version of NNS DAPP (or similar) that could do 2 above WITHOUT the messiness of my current proposal(3).
And If one is not a seed, but just a casual investor who created neurons directly in the NNS through the Internet Identity, can we expect to use the Ledger App for our already staked neurons ? Or not.
The point is that you (or anyone else) should NOT HAVE to go through this. This is why I am asking whether it is feasible and reasonable to include this into the ledger in context of longer roadmap.
If you create a neuron directly through the NNS Dapp, then no, it is entirely separate from the private key used by the Ledger Nano.
What you could do, to have just a bit more synchrony, is to install the FIDO2 app on the Ledger Nano, and use this as an authentication device to your II account. Then remove all other devices beside your recovery choices.
That way, the same device (Nano) is used to access both your II neuron and your Nano neuron. Both will require the same PIN to be entered on the Nano, and your Nano seed phrase can be used to restore access to both (although the technical details of restoring Nano FIDO2 access are a touch complicated at the moment).
There is an open feature proposal to allow management of neurons through extended hot keys, so that you could add the ability to spawn, merge maturity, disburse etc., to a hot key, and then use your Nano as the controller for that hot key. If this feature idea is of interest to you, please let us know!
I am worried this thread, which is called “Seed Round Access”, gets off-topic if we take the Ledger announcement and use it to kick off discussing how other groups (not seed round folks) can use the Ledger. Shouldn’t we be discussing that in a different thread?
There are at least these three groups:
Seed round folks
People who haven’t staked yet and are going to stake now with the Ledger
People who have already staked with the NNS dapp and are wondering how they can take advantage of the Ledger
We should establish best practices for each of the groups. I think we should be structured about the discussion and have it in three separate threads. I expect each discussion to lead to best-practices for each group which can then eventually become a wiki page.
To further this thread, the important point for seed round folks is:
If you have already claimed your neurons then you can now enter your original 12-word phrase from the seed round into a Ledger and control your neurons directly from the Ledger.
If you have not claimed your neurons yet then you can either claim right now with quill from a laptop or wait for the very next update of the Ledger app which will contain the claiming functionality so that you can claim directly from the Ledger as well and don’t need quill anymore.
Even though the Merge Maturity option isn’t available for Ledger users, you can still wait until you have enough to spawn a new neuron, then dissolve/disburse and from there you can add stake to your original staked neuron, am I understanding that correctly?
So as far as compounding goes Ledger users would miss out on some level of rewards because they would not be able to compound daily, right? And also if I remember correctly adding to your stake is a transaction with fees too, right? So with the current state of the Internet Computer app, Ledger users would have some opportunity cost and additional fees to deal with, if they want to maximize rewards?
Thanks to the team for all the hard work on Ledger integration thus far!
This is temporary. The very next release of the Leder app will already allow it. So I wouldn’t worry about this limitation at all. It won’t be there for long and then you can merge maturity directly from the Ledger daily.
First of all, can we please not talk about non-seed wallets here, as @timo mentioned. It is very confusing to read the above conversation.
Second, could someone explain the following in as simple terms as possible:
Can we transfer our already claimed neurons from the Seed Round, which are not dissolved and are staking, to a new Ledger wallet?
If the answer to above is no, then how are we supposed to secure our seed round neurons, since the seed phrase could potentially be compromised? It’s plain stupid that we are limited to a non-hardware wallet because the neurons are time-locked (which also we did not know when investing in the seed round).
Some people above were talking something about issues with Ledger and rewards, and “auto-merging”. What does this mean in simple terms? Do you get less rewards on the Ledger or cannot claim all rewards, or have extra fees?
You mean if you just bought a brand new Ledger hardware wallet? When first connecting it you choose to recover from a mnemonic phrase instead of letting the hardware wallet generate a phrase. Then you enter the 12-word phrase from the seed round.
Some people want to convert maturity into ICP as quickly as possible, i.e. at a high frequency, possibly daily. They do this to take advantage of a “compound interest” like effect in order to maximize their rewards. For security, of course they want to this conversion to only require the Ledger hardware wallet. So what are the options to convert maturity into ICP:
Spawn a new neuron. This can be done from the Ledger today but is considered too complicated by these people. They want to merge maturity into the already existing new neuron instead of having to deal with a new one.
Merge a neuron’s maturity into the same neuron. This is possible by the governance canister but the current Ledger wallet app cannot sign the call to that function. The next upgrade will.
Put a neuron in “auto-merge” so that you don’t even have to call a function. The neuron automatically merges its maturity at a regular interval. This is a wanted feature that is on the roadmap. But it will take some time because it is not a trivial feature for the governance canister as @jwiegley described.
Allow to configure a hotkey instead of the controller to call the merge maturity function. This is a more lightweight feature that could be achieved quicker than the auto-merge. I advocate for putting it on the roadmap.
So to answer your question: when you control your seed neurons from a Ledger and only from a Ledger and you don’t want to do 1. (i.e. insist on 2. instead) then you miss out on a “compound interest” effect for a few weeks until the first upgrade of the Ledger app. Since compound interest is only significant over longer time periods these few weeks should not matter. If it matters to you then you have to do 1. directly from the Ledger for the next few weeks and then switch to 2.
No, as I put in bold a new Ledger wallet. Initializing from the mnemonic from the seed round is not a new wallet. That seed could be compromised. I am talking about a newly generated seed.
Ok, understood that you want to change the seed phrase. I got confused by this statement
In my understanding you are not limited to a non-hardware wallet but you are limited to your old seed phrase. That’s why the statement confused me. You mean because the neurons are time-locked you cannot change the seed phrase whereas if the tokens were liquid then you could just move them to an account associated with a new seed. Right?
Unfortunately that isn’t possible. Are you more worried about it already being compromised or going to get compromised in the future?
It is not yet forum-ready, we are still hashing out some details. Recently (yesterday) one of the NNS engineers devised an elegant simplification, so it’s still rather in flux even as a proposal. Just wanted to let you know that we’re indeed thinking about this!
I wish so hard I were a dev. Thanks !