Mitigating NNS Power w/ Canister Data Exports

[Accumulating.icp]

@Hazel

Honestly, I thought this would be a widely popular suggestion and a huge home run in terms of “shows of good faith” for the NNS. Is it possible that the forums just aren’t where these discussions are happening anymore?

I haven’t jumped into this conversation yet, as I feel as though you’ve handled it extremely well, and my involvement will only take away from your objective (given this conspiracy that I am a paid bad actor trying to take over the NNS).

With that being said, I personally resonate with the sentiment & proposal you’ve presented. I’m rather surprised that more people have not asserted that they to recognize the value in a truly decentralized blockchain - in which does not “own” user assets, but rather “manages” the assets for them.

Unfortunately, your concluding statement holds true - the forum is no longer a place for diverse conversation & opinion. A few months ago it was “hijacked” for lack of better words, by users who are insistent on belittling & deteriorating anything with the potential to spark decentralization, or “potentially reduce DFINITYs voting power” (I don’t even think this proposal does that, which is why I find the characters tone within this thread so amusing).

Ironically (given it was once begged that we stop using twitter - as it is bad PR for DFINITY - and switch to forums instead), your best bet is making your voice heard on twitter (or other social platforms) in alignment with the proposal.

That is the only way to truly reach the ecosystem anymore.

[Accumulating.icp]

Considering the amount of manipulation, gas lighting, intellectual dishonesty, and general inability to critically think, it’s really hard to believe that you don’t have some ulterior motive.

You know you can’t win here, go and build on some other blockchain, please.

[Accumulating.icp]

“We can’t handle the fact that these commoners want decentralization - let’s show them the importance of centralized control!”

What a great pitch for ICP🤣

[Accumulating.icp]

Nobody is saying to hand anything over.

This imaginary figment that you & @dominicwilliams have - that everyone who wants to contribute to this decentralized, open source protocol; wants to take it over - is going to lead to its downfall.

I understand you don’t trust ICP with anyone else yet - hell, I don’t even trust ICP with you yet.

Hence why you so frequently see me say “don’t trust, verify”.

Nobody is saying DFINITY should relinquish all VP, and simply go away. Nobody is saying DFINITY should be “pushing” alternative contributors.

But if DFINITY (Dominic) is so concerned with the “threat” of (another) business being taken over, maybe you should invest resources in building the ecosystem with you, rather than against you.

If you want to maintain this claim that it’s a decentralized protocol; 99.99999% of github commits and code based executions can not be coming from DFINITY. Node Providers can’t be gatekept by DFINITY (Yes, I know there are already great strides to alleviate this concern). There are steps to be taken to further the credibility of the protocol.

Centralization is not a solution.

It’s what the Internet Computer sets out to solve.

EDIT: It’s been a whole 5 minutes since I’ve posted this…

…taking a long time with this reply….

pick up the phone Dominic!!!

[Accumulating.icp]

Side note, as this is a recurring theme;

I have absolutely no involvement with Code&State. I’ve never even spoken to Cedric.

The only member of that “foundation” in which I have any connection to, is Isaac Valadez, and that is due to governance work that pre-existed Code&State.

Please stop drawing false connotations & presenting them as fact.

[Accumulating.icp]

@borovan

This is how narcissists work though, they throw out suggestions, ideas, slowly move the focus of conversation. It’s manipulative, underhand and serves an agenda.

@borovan

Let’s hand it all over to Artia and Cedric then, that would just be great.

Actually, I realised why that was a bad idea, they have no technical background and have never built anything in their lives.

It shocks me, how often it seems like you’re talking to yourself😳

@borovan

A lot of US-based people who have attended Code & State events are repeating the same parroted narative.

I’ve never attended a Code&State event, an ICP event, or a crypto event in general. Your sweeping statements are filled with inaccuracies in an attempt to discredit those opposing you in conversation. It’s very transparent when you read it in hindsight!

@borovan

I’ll shoot down any anti-foundation narrative

You’re the one crafting these as “anti-foundation narratives” within your imagination. I haven’t seen anybody in this thread belittle or detract from the DFINITY foundation in any manner, but rather, offer room for improvement.

I’m just going to quote this again, because I think you really need to absorb this for what it means;

@Accumulating.icp

This imaginary figment that you & @dominicwilliams have - that everyone who wants to contribute to this decentralized, open source protocol; wants to take it over - is going to lead to its downfall.

I understand you don’t trust ICP with anyone else yet - hell, I don’t even trust ICP with you yet.

Hence why you so frequently see me say “don’t trust, verify”.

Nobody is saying DFINITY should relinquish all VP, and simply go away. Nobody is saying DFINITY should be “pushing” alternative contributors.

But if DFINITY (Dominic) is so concerned with the “threat” of (another) business being taken over, maybe you should invest resources in building the ecosystem with you, rather than against you.

If you want to maintain this claim that it’s a decentralized protocol; 99.99999% of github commits and code based executions can not be coming from DFINITY. Node Providers can’t be gatekept by DFINITY (Yes, I know there are already great strides to alleviate this concern). There are steps to be taken to further the credibility of the protocol.

Centralization is not a solution.

It’s what the Internet Computer sets out to solve.

[Accumulating.icp]

@borovan

So let’s just call it quits for now, and the next time you weigh in as a concern troll on a “centralised foundation” matter I’ll call you out.

You’re free to try to “call me out” whenever you’d like, but I’m sure at a certain point, all of these chat logs will get embarrassing for you, no…? No matter - I appreciate the engagement, you always keep me on top of the forums!

Anybody capable of critical thinking & due diligence can see through your (attempted) discrediting statements - you can call me a “concern troll” all you’d like, but that doesn’t change the fact that I care about the blockchain, and will continue to push it in the direction that I believe is beneficial for it as a whole.

[Accumulating.icp]

Anybody interested in them are free to explore any of my proposals - they won’t have a hard time finding our dialogues

I’m going to let @Hazel get back to what they were doing now : p don’t want to burden this specific forum with more off topic content❤️

[Hazel]

@Accumulating.icp sorry to disappoint you; I was preparing a low effort shit post lmao

[Accumulating.icp]

Okay I was done but you tempted me with this edit🤣

@borovan

Oh sorry I thought you were talking about my “Neopets rant” which you kindly brought up previously

POV: It’s 10 Years down the line & Borovan has just given his “FUCK DRAGGINZ I WISH I NEVER MADE THAT SHIT GAME” speech

[aiv]

@borovan

I’m not sure where you’re getting your Code & State opinions from, but I thought I’d help clear up a few things:

1. Cédric is awesome!
Seb and I were both very active for over a year in the ICP ecosystem before we met Cédric in November 2022. We quickly realized he’s an awesome guy and got excited to work with him!

Check out his website or his YouTube channel. He’s a tech founder with successful edits and has been a VC for like 15 years even though he’s only 35. He started his first company at age 14!

He’s very open and is exactly who he portrays himself as. These are just some of the reasons Dom brought him in early, as a founding board member of DFINITY. If you speak to any OG staff member at DFINITY, you’ll find that they only have positive things to say about Cédric. Best boss I’ve ever had!

2. Code & State has no anti-DFINITY agenda whatsoever!
Cédric left DFINITY because it was growing into a large organization, and he prefers working within small nimble teams because that’s where his strength is as an entrepreneur. He likes early stage ventures. At Code & State we don’t intend on ever growing beyond 15 full time staff, so it’s clear that we have no desire or inclination to ever do what DFINITY does.

We support DFINITY’s work, we have NEVER said a word against DFINITY, and we even asked Dom’s permission before doing the conference just to make sure we weren’t disrupting any of their plans. We also don’t do anything that DFINITY is already doing, we are just helping to create building blocks for the ecosystem which are outside the scope of what DFINITY does. These are things like creating the 1st ICP talent agency, 1st ICP code auditing firm, taking over and running Motoko Bootcamp, etc. We aim to reinforce what DFINITY has built and catalyze the emerging industry being built on ICP.

3. Code & State has not had any involvement with the NNS or protocol governance
At some point there might be a Code & State known neuron, but that’s probably a long way off and it is just not a priority for us right now. We’ve made no public announcements or opinions regarding NNS proposals or anything like that, and Cédric isn’t even a known neuron or voice that’s active on any NNS governance matters. In short, we’re happy to just keep our focus on building ventures that help ICP entrepreneurs.

Where there might be some confusion here is with my personal NNS governance participation. Before I even met Cédric I created the NNS Proposal Submission dapp (as part of a DFINITY bounty), and then became a Known Neuron and headed up the Ethos Proposal that got shot down. All of that was before I started working for Code & State, and to be honest I haven’t been super active in NNS governance since I got this job. When I am vocal on governance topics, I’m strictly representing my own personal opinions, not those of Code & State. I’m NOT a founder of Code & State, just a full time employee, and I was a voice within the ICP ecosystem for well over a year before I started work at Code & State on January 1st 2023. Basically, if I say something from my personal Twitter or from my personal account on this forum (such as this post) it’s coming from me as a long time ICP community member, it’s not an official Code & State communication.

[aiv]

Oh yeah, and @Accumulating.icp just know each other from back when I proposed the Ethos Proposal. Like he said, he’s not got any relationship with Code & State.

I’m honestly not sure why Code & State was even brought up in this thread.

[borovan]

To be honest I’m not sure either, this thread was about technology, so Code & State is possibly the last thing I’d expect to see mentioned.

[rckprtr]

Do you think Code & State is trying to replace DFINITY?

• Yes
• No
• Wtf have I been doing with the last couple years of my life?

[dsarlis]

Providing platform support for snapshotting and exporting is something that was discussed during the last ICP.Lab on Storage and Scalability , and is something that DFINITY wants as well.

Maybe @dsarlis or @ulan can give an update on the state of these features.

The feature to provide snapshots and the ability to export/download those snapshots is in the early stages of discussion and exploring the scope. The relevant people are working on other items at the moment but it’s in the bucket of next features to pick up more actively. I don’t have a precise estimate to give now besides that we’re most likely looking at a couple of months at least before we have some results.

[Seb]

Hey,
I just wanted to share my thoughts here. This is my personal opinion and not an official C&S communication. Just like my regular posts here or tweets.

Firstly, I’m super proud to be a part of Code & State. I was actually the 1st full time employee there, so I’ve been involved from the early days. Working there has been amazing, and I agree with @aiv points. Cedric is a great boss, and my professional/personal growth has been amazing since joining, almost 1 year ago.

At Code & State, we’ve organized great free bootcamps (with another one starting next week btw - no time for vacations!). We’ve trained hundreds of devs, created the resources to do so, showcased ICP tech countless times, and even helped some professionals get hired into top ICP startups. Once again, I’m proud of the work we’ve been doing and that’s only gonna get better.
From an ICP ecosystem member perspective, having an organization like Code & State dedicated to the ecosystem is incredibly valuable. Actually, I believe that we should have more organisations like C&S (competition is good!). We need more people working in this ecosystem. We need more capital in this ecosystem.

I found the accusations in this thread sad to read. It’s not just about Code & State; there are accusations thrown at DFINITY and community members too. Throwing false accusations or attacking people is never helping. Shutting down questions is never helping. Anyone should be able to freely ask questions and share his concerns about the NNS or centralisation of power. I remember a few months after Genesis where we could have a respectful and open discussion on this forum, I wish we could go back there.

Two years ago, I decided to drop out of school and bet it all on ICP. Why? Because, I’m incredibly admirative of the technology DFINITY has built, believe in Dom’s vision and think the Internet Computer will change the world. I’ve met many DFINITY team members in person and even visited the DFINITY HQ in Zurich (that’s actually where I met Cedric and got pumped at the idea to work at Code & State). Meeting them has only reinforced my beliefs in ICP. I shared my admiration for what they’ve built and the work they’ve been doing directly with them. I’ve received countless support from DFINITY for the initiatives I’ve worked on. And I will keep working with DFINITY as much as possible. Never, while working at Code & State I’ve been forced or suggested to work against DFINITY. That would have been against my values and convictions. What DFINITY has built is incredible and I’m dedicated to putting my next years of energy to bring more builders, building an amazing educational powerhouse for this ecosystem and helping decentralize this ecosystem doing so.

To anyone reading this if you have concerns or want to have an open discussion, never hesitate to speak up. Your voice matters. Asking questions, being curious or skeptic is normal. Don’t let the fear of being accused stop you from speaking up. We need open talks, transparency and accountability.

[Sormarler]

I don’t know about replacing but ICP needs other major contributors. Also ICP doesn’t belong to Dfinity. Anyone should be able to come in and participate in the protocols.

[theguy]

very rare few gifts to the ecosystem

[aiv]

I’m a libertarian, I don’t flag posts any posts of any kind because I think everyone should have the write to post whatever they want and readers should not have the ability to censor things that “offend” them. People shouldn’t be able to censor on a Web3 forum.

I hope they someday host they forum on a decentralized platform that doesn’t have these censorship functions.

Anyways, you probably won’t believe me, but those who know me will know that I’m not the one who’s been flagging your posts.

[aiv]

What?

The ICP Devs neuron has nothing to do with Code & State.

It’s controlled via an Axon DAO, and I’m pretty sure the ICDevs board contains DFINITY staff members as well. I’m on the ICDevs board for some dev contributions I had made, but @skilesare will probably tell you that unfortunately I haven’t contributed too much. In all honesty, we all owe @skilesare gratitude for all the work he does on his own time to keep this neuron and ICDevs.org running, the bounties are a great help to the ecosystem!