ICP (SNS) DAO community group

[lara]

TL;DR

• Proposal: A new place for DAOs on the ICP to discuss (SNS) DAO features, exchange experiences, share useful tools, and more.
• Question to discuss here: Is this something that you would find useful and what would be your preferred dapp for this?

Hi all,
A few weeks back, some of the DAOs on the ICP had a very positive and constructive exchange during the ICP DAO labs. We propose to continue this exchange more long-term in a dapp on the ICP.

Motivation

Why could it be useful to have one place where all DAO communities can be reached?

• Exchange tools, libraries, canisters. For example, there are a number of emerging community tools that make it easier to manage DAO’s cycles or submit SNS proposals, and there are canisters that were built to hold neurons of other DAOs. It would be great if there is one place where such tools, libraries, and helper canisters can be shared and found.

• Discuss new SNS framework designs. DFINITY is currently working on some new SNS-related designs where we will shortly ask for feedback from all SNS DAOs. While we plan to discuss the designs with the community on the forum, it would be useful to have a way to notify all launched SNS DAOs about such conversations so that they can participate.

• Notify SNS DAOs of important updates. A few weeks back there was a security incident where all SNS DAOs were asked to upgrade urgently to the latest version. For these cases, and less urgent cases where SNS DAOs are just informed about release schedules, it would be useful to have a channel to reach all SNS DAOs.

• Learn from each other! There are many more topics that can benefit from an exchange of experiences and ideas, such as DAO asset management, dapp upgrade organization, fostering community engagement, integration with different tools, and many more!

Proposal

We think it would be great to have one place where all communities from different SNSs and other DAOs on the ICP can join together. It would be useful to have different channels where different topics, such as the ones listed above, can be discussed separately. We propose an open format where everyone can follow the conversations. Maybe the write privileges can be limited to DAO community members.

Possible dapps

One example would be to form an Open Chat group with the topics above (and others) discussed in different dedicated channels.
Similarly, another option might be to use Catalyze.
What other options are there? What dapp do you think is well-suited and due to which features that would be useful for this use case?

Feedback we are looking for

Do SNS community members think this would be a useful tool? If so, what would be your preferred dapp and why?

Please share your feedback and, if there is enough interest, we can jointly decide what to set up!

Looking forward to your feedback and to fruitful discussions!

[Phasma]

That sounds interesting, but the Motoko DAO staking bug is still an issue.

Due to a rounding error, some neurons weren’t assigned voting rights. This glitch causes the maximum dissolution delay to remain at 6 days and 23 hours for certain users, effectively leaving them without the ability to vote.

This needs urgent attention.

[lara]

We are actively working on the issue you refer to. If you would like more information about the status, I suggest we have this conversation in another thread and stay on the main topic here.

[levi]

Hey @lara, great idea, I’ll join for the communication channels. I think it is useful to have one place for DFINITY to send a message communication to the SNSs.

@lara

DFINITY is currently working on some new SNS-related designs where we will shortly ask for feedback from all SNS DAOs

Sounds fun, looking forward.

I think OpenChat is the best place, the community features with separate channels work great.

[Cris.MntYetti]

Hi everyone, and thank you Lara for raising this discussion.

Implementing such a framework has been discussed several times already in the Taggr community and I would like to leave a proposal for all SNS teams to tinker about. Here’s the deal:

Proposal: Establishing a Decentralized SNS DAO Hub on Taggr

TL;DR

Taggr’s decentralized, censorship-resistant platform provides a perfect environment for the SNS DAO to grow and thrive. By leveraging Realms, tokenized incentives, and decentralized governance tools, DAOs can build fully autonomous, engaging, and rewarding communities. Creating a decentralized hub on Taggr empowers the SNS DAO while offering participation in Taggr’s tokenized economy, with opportunities for funding to drive further development.

The SNS DAOs can serve as a model for how decentralized communities can successfully operate on Taggr, building a self-sustaining ecosystem that benefits all members while embodying the values of decentralization and autonomy.

Introduction

With the growth of DAOs and decentralized social platforms, there is a significant opportunity to build sustainable, community-driven ecosystems. Taggr provides an ideal environment for DAOs like the ones from SNS to establish a dynamic, decentralized hub. This proposal outlines how Taggr’s features, particularly Realms, can be leveraged to create a decentralized, interactive, and incentivized environment for SNS DAO members, encouraging participation and growth.

Why Taggr for the SNS DAO?

Taggr is designed to foster decentralized communities, with values that closely align with DAOs from SNS: autonomy, decentralization, and reward-driven participation. Building the SNS DAO hub on Taggr offers several key advantages:

• Decentralization & Censorship Resistance: Taggr ensures a fully decentralized, censorship-resistant environment. This is crucial for DAOs that prioritize autonomy and control over their community spaces.
• Revenue Sharing and Monetization: Realms on Taggr generate revenue, with 5% of that revenue shared with Realm controllers. DAOs can use this model to fund operations and incentivize member participation, making it a self-sustaining ecosystem.
• Pay-to-Post Model: Taggr’s pay-to-post model helps maintain meaningful discussions by reducing spam, ensuring interactions in DAO Realms are constructive and valuable.
• Tokenized Interaction: Taggr’s credit-based interaction model and governance structure allow DAOs to easily integrate tokenized rewards for members. Members earn credits for meaningful contributions, which can be redistributed to incentivize continued engagement and participation.

Features of the SNS DAO Hub on Taggr

1. Gated Realms for DAO Members

   • DAOs could create private Realms accessible only to verified members. These exclusive spaces are ideal for conducting important discussions, proposal development, and decentralized voting.
   • Access can be linked to DAO membership, ensuring that only stakeholders contribute to critical decision-making processes.

2. Public Realms for Community Engagement

   • Alongside private spaces, DAOs can establish public Realms to engage a wider audience. These serve as forums for onboarding, education, and community interaction.
   • Public Realms encourage transparency and provide potential members with a space to learn about the DAO’s mission and governance, promoting an inclusive and open environment.

3. Incentivizing Discussions with Revenue Sharing

   • DAOs can utilize the revenue generated from Realms to create a reward system that encourages constructive contributions. Members who provide valuable insights or actively participate in discussions can be rewarded with credits derived from Realm revenue.
   • Additionally, active members participate in Taggr’s weekly reward distribution, earning ICP, TAGGR or credits rewards based on their preferred method of payment and their activity within the platform.

4. Custom Governance and Moderation

   • Each Realm on Taggr can have its own governance and moderation rules, allowing DAOs to tailor the experience to their specific needs.
   • Decentralized moderation ensures fairness and transparency, realm controllers have full control on what happens inside their groups and, if things happen to go too far, trusted community members act as moderators (Stalwarts) to maintain the quality of discussions on the platform as a whole.

5. Decentralized Voting and Proposal Integration

   • Taggr allows DAOs to conduct decentralized voting through SNS and NNS proposals directly from within the platform by creating a Taggr neuron. DAOs can integrate these voting mechanisms into their governance processes, ensuring that all members have a voice.
   • By leveraging polls and other voting tools within Realms, DAOs can ensure inclusive and transparent decision-making.

6. Funding DAO Development via Taggr

   • DAOs building on Taggr can submit funding proposals to the Taggr DAO to receive Taggr tokens. This funding can be used to enhance platform capabilities or create new tools that benefit both the SNS and Taggr communities.

Detailed Implementation Plan

1. Create Realms for Different Functions

   • Gated Realms: Designed for core SNS DAO members, focusing on governance, proposal voting, and essential decision-making processes.
   • Public Realms: Open to the larger community for education, engagement, and potential member onboarding.

2. Incorporate Tokenized Incentives

   • Establish a system where active participants earn credits or rewards based on their contributions (e.g., posts, comments, reactions). DAOs can distribute these rewards from the 5% revenue share generated by the Realm, incentivizing engagement and productivity.

3. Enable Voting Mechanisms

   • Utilize Taggr’s voting features to facilitate transparent, decentralized voting on DAO proposals. Integrating these tools into the SNS DAO’s governance ensures that all members’ voices are heard in real-time.

4. Submit Funding Proposals

   • DAOs can submit funding proposals to the Taggr DAO to request support in the form of Taggr tokens. These funds can be used to expand the DAO’s activities, develop new features, or improve existing infrastructure on Taggr.

5. Community Engagement and Onboarding

   • Use public Realms to educate new users and provide onboarding resources, ensuring easy integration into the SNS DAO’s activities. Public Realms can help foster a broader sense of community and attract new members to the DAO.

I look forward to submitting a funding proposal for any DAO team that rises to the challenge and builds this framework on Taggr. Feel free to reach out in any moment for further discussions about this proposal: OpenChat

[lara]

Sounds fun, looking forward.

You can find the first one here!

Thanks for the feedback!

[lara]

Hi @Cris.MntYetti , thanks for the idea!

I might be wrong, but some of the things you mention seem to indicate that this framework would be particularly well suited for a DAO community. Note that here we are looking more for a platform where many DAOs can have an exchange.
Do you also think this would be a good fit and could you maybe list very briefly the key 2-3 points why you think this would be the right tool?

A few follow up questions:

• Do I understand correctly from the “detailed implementation plan” that this feature does not currently exist and first would have to be implemented?
• You mention “Pay-to-Post Model” - does this mean that for every post one has to pay?
• Is it possible in realms to have a restricted set of people who have permission to post but a more open group of people who can read the messages? This could be useful for the use case.

[Cris.MntYetti]

Yes, I believe Taggr would be a great fit for a platform where multiple DAOs can interact. Here are the key points why I think it’s the right tool:

• Pay-to-Post Model: This model generates revenue, creating economic opportunities for DAOs and active users while significantly reducing spam. Every interaction has a minimal cost, paid by converting ICP into credits. For example, $1.30 is enough for 500 simple text posts.

• Collaborative DAO Environment: Taggr is a DAO itself and is fully autonomous. This fosters collaboration among DAOs. They can propose changes to the framework based on their needs and get funded in Taggr tokens for implementing them, diversifying their treasury and further decentralizing Taggr.

• Flexible and Expandable Platform: Taggr serves as a semi-blank canvas where others can build functionalities that benefit everyone. It has a solid base that anyone is welcome to build upon.

Regarding your follow-up questions:

• Existing Features: Realms already exist within Taggr and can be personalized in their rules and already generate revenue. Five percent of that revenue is distributed back to the realm controllers that could be used to reward meaningful contributions. Taggr can pull SNS and NNS proposals, allowing members to vote directly from the platform. This serves as a foundation upon which additional features can be built.

• Pay-to-Post Mechanics: Yes, every interaction on Taggr has a cost. This minimal fee disincentivizes spam and contributes to the platform’s revenue, while allowing users to monetize their content.

• Permissions and Accessibility in Realms: Currently, realms can be whitelisted so that only specific members can post. Others can read, upvote, and give tips but cannot post within those realms. Allowing comments is on the roadmap, similar to how OpenChat allows replies in threads. Additional functionalities might need to be developed to meet specific needs.

In Conclusion:

Taggr has a robust foundation and has overcome several challenges, making it a strong candidate for your platform needs. It exemplifies what can be achieved using ICP technology through DAO collaboration. Even if Taggr isn’t selected for this particular endeavor, I encourage every SNS DAO to consider the possibilities and benefits it could bring to their projects by serving as a governance hub without the need to build one from scratch.

Feel free to ask if you have more questions!

[ikanpaus]

Hi Lara and everyone in Dfinity Forum…

I think OpenChat has an advantage because it already has push notifications to users’ devices.

However, even though OpenChat is great for individual conversations, I feel that for deeper discussion, Taggr’s structure is more suitable.

I noticed that Catalyze uses the same structure as OpenChat for replies, so I’ll just use OpenChat as the example.

The difference between the two is that Taggr, by default, already supports threads within threads for user communication, while OpenChat only has a single-layer thread.

This distinction will be crucial when conversations get more in-depth, ensuring that users’ posts don’t overlap with one another.

If there are only a few replies, it’s not an issue—users can simply scroll.

But if the number of replies explodes and more individuals join the discussion in that thread, the single-layer thread system can make it quite difficult because everything is on the same line.

Here’s an illustration with an example:

TAGGR

Example:

OPENCHAT

Example:

This is an example of when replies pile up and multiple users join the conversation.
Feel free to compare them for yourselves, everyone.

Here’s an example of Taggr with 36 replies in one thread: TAGGR

Here’s an example of OpenChat with 38 replies in one thread.: OpenChat

Taggr’s structure is more organized and better suited for larger group discussions.

I hope my reply can add a little extra to this discussion.

Best regards,

ikanpaus

[mechaquan]

Hi @lara while I agree with all the points @Cris.MntYetti makes there is one point which I think sets #Taggr apart from everything else (aside from being decentralized)…

It has an incredibly rich search functionality… because there is little to no point in having a place to discuss share ideas and libraries if you can’t find it later.

How about we run a trial and create some threads/discussions and we can reward those first 10 DAOs (pending approval by the community)?!

[vavram]

I would strongly recommend using OpenChat for the SNS DAO hub community simply because it’s the most feature-rich dApp and its’ gatekeeping model is optional unlike Taggr where “every interaction has a cost” as @Cris.MntYetti nicely put it which goes directly against the reverse-gas principle of ICP.

[dostro]

I’d love to see a dapp that tokengates entry to this community so that only SNS neuron holders can enter/post.

NNS would need to support all wallets and delegations for principals that can be reused across the ecosystem, which IMO is low effort and high impact.

(Or hot keys or NNS would need to issue verifiable credentials that the dapp would request/verify, but it’s very hard to request other wallets support this when there are already so many other challenges with supporting ICRC (and other standard) tokens.)

[MikeArtwork]

Excellent idea , I am totally wishing to see this idea progress further .

[MikeArtwork]

I like what I see here and like the other discussion on this topic, I hope to see the idea progress further .

[julianjelfs]

Hi Lara,

Much as we love all the contenders, it would be remiss if we didn’t make the case for using OpenChat for this!

As others have mentioned, OpenChat is the most mature, widely used and feature rich communications platform in the ecosystem at the moment. It has been modelled around the familiar feature sets of tools like Slack and Discord which are already widely used for this sort of thing. It does of course share the characteristics of fault tolerance and decentralisation which all SNS dApps enjoy.

OpenChat’s structure is very well suited to the purpose described with Communities, Channels, Messages and Threads. Communities and Channels can be individually access controlled with a wide variety of gates to provide highly granular control. Notably, in this case, this includes individual SNS Neuron holder access gates. We also have verifiable credential integration which makes our access gate control system easily extensible to include a huge variety of checks as required.

In addition, we have a very flexible roles and permissions system to give complete control over what kind of messages can be sent and by which user roles.

As evidence that this is a successful and well-liked model, OpenChat is already home to just about all SNS projects - and we can handle it! The users that you wish to appeal to with this initiative can already be found on OpenChat which makes it a very low friction and low risk option.

Furthermore, OpenChat supports integrated SNS proposal voting as well as more informal voting via polls which also makes it an ideal place for governance discussions to take place. We also have clear cut (but configurable) rules of engagement and independent moderation for when things get a bit spicy.

We support video calls, both for small scale groups discussions and for larger town-hall style broadcasts. This is ideally suited to keeping people up to date with platform developments.

We support push notifications on all platforms which is also a must when it comes to keeping people in the loop.

In the interests of engagement and ease of use, it is important to us that OpenChat should always be free to use in keeping with the reverse gas ethos of the IC itself. We don’t want anyone’s voice to be excluded. But it is also important to keep the quality of discourse high when you need to. To this end, we have unique personhood verification, a sophisticated access control system, robust roles and permissions and independent moderation.

And of course, OpenChat is itself an SNS and so the team are well aware of the challenges and pitfalls involved and can be on hand to help and advise. We have demonstrated that we are more than willing to listen to feedback and build the features that people need quickly and efficiently.

Finally, to address the specific comparison between thread handling in OpenChat vs Taggr: we considered a reddit style tree model as Taggr has but felt that it give much greater clarity to have all thread replies in the same context. This is how Slack works as well. We improved on the Slack model by also allowing quote replies within a thread so that it is always possible to indicate clearly which thread reply you are responding to.

So we think OpenChat would be a great fit and we would be more than happy to host this initiative.

Hope this helps!

Julian (OpenChat).

[infu]

Based on the ‘Motivation’ of the post it seems this is for developers only and giving public ‘write’ access may result in people uploading memes or screenshots of their dapp problems to a point where discussing for example ‘SNS framework design - optimizing canister upgrades’ will become pretty hard.

I guess only OC can limit the write access right now?

[lara]

Hi all, thanks for all the feedback!
It sounds like we have two suggestions: Taggr & Open Chat.

As this should be a tool for and from SNS communities, in my opinion it would be great if deciding on the channel and setting it up is driven by the SNS DAOs themselves!

Maybe someone has a great idea how to vote on the decisions?
Another possible way to go about this is that some team just sets up such a channel and convinces / motivates a lot of other SNSs to join. Once the ball is rolling I am also happy to try to inform even more communities / add conversations etc.
Anyone up for getting this started?

[megrogan]

Hi all,

We (OpenChat) have gone ahead and created a community on OpenChat called The DAO Circle.

Representatives of each DAO team will be community admins and some DAO team members have been invited already. If you are a DAO team member and you don’t currently have access please let me know on OpenChat@matt.

Right now this community is private but in the coming days will become public.

We hope this can become a useful resource for the IC DAOs and wider community.

[wpb]

My $0.02 on the app selection…

I’ve used both Taggr and OpenChat extensively and I think OpenChat is more suitable for this type of community group. It has more features that would be needed to manage and configure the community including availability of private channels and direct messaging as well as channel permission levels and what kinds of posts are allowed at each level in each channel. Don’t get me wrong, I love Taggr just as much as OpenChat, but I think OpenChat is better suited at this time. These are the same reasons why I chose OpenChat for the CodeGov community and I haven’t regretted that decision. The performance and features of OpenChat just keep getting better all the time.

[Phasma]

Wow, @wpb , glad to see you’ve still got a little bit of that sharp thinking left!
I mean, obviously, OpenChat is the perfect pick for IC DAOs