Creating a proposal

Governance
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------UPDATE---- I went through the beginning processes. I used DFX and quill to get to the point of creating what’s necessary, funding it, and staking the funds for a year. Now I’m ready to make the proposal. I just have to make sense of the info I’m finding. For example, for Proposal Format- I see one guide that states there’s 5 fields (Summary, URL, Proposer, Proposal Type, Parameters). But I go over " Example Motion Project Proposal", I don’t see those fields. I see Objective, Background, Why this is Important, Pros, Cons, etc… This looks like 2 ways to do it. Which one applies? Is correct? And which Proposal Type should i use if I’m asking to freeze a neuron that was stolen from me? I was thinking ManageNeuron. But what makes me think that’s not right is that “Only the followers of the target neuron may vote on these proposals”. I would like to allow anyone who can vote on it to vote. Am I missing something? Then there’s the DFX transmission part, “Example NNS motion proposal with $TITLE, $MOTION_TEXT, $SUMMARY, and $NEURON_ID filled out:”. Here’s the example given for that: dfx --identity proposals canister --network ic call rrkah-fqaaa-aaaaa-aaaaq-cai manage_neuron '(record {id = null; command=opt variant {MakeProposal=record {url=“”; title=“Open Governance canister for SNS | Design proposal”;action=opt variant {Motion=record {motion_text=“Present design proposal for Open Governance canister”}}; summary="

How is one supposed to make sense of this without more info?

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It seems you are following the instructions here. Is that right? If so, I’m having trouble reading your copy because of the formatting. Did you get an error when you submitted it? Can you share it?

https://wiki.internetcomputer.org/wiki/How-To:_Create_an_NNS_motion_proposal

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What are you quoting? Is that in the doc above?

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Thanks for getting back to me.
Yes, the document that you mentioned is the main one i was working off. I’m afraid to to try send off a proposal with that amount of info. I’m just not confident that it would be accurate enough to work. Especially if I get the proposal type wrong.

I also used this too: Proposal format | Internet Computer

And this too:
Neuron and proposal details | Internet Computer Scroll down to proposal format. Below that is Proposal topics, which is where I saw the info on who can vote for Manage neuron proposal type. And since then, I’ve been wondering if this restriction is for followers of the neuron that I want to freeze, or followers of the nueron that I’m using to make the proposal?

I ended up finding an example that you posted back in 2021. And I thought I might just try to alter it to fit what I’m trying to do. In that post I saw:

$ dfx --identity proposals canister --network ic --no-wallet call rrkah-fqaaa-aaaaa-aaaaq-cai manage_neuron ‘(record {id = null; command=opt variant {MakeProposal=record {url=“”; title=”In the NNS Frontend dapp, add cycle_dao’s neuron (5967494994762486275) so people can follow cycle_dao”;action=opt variant {Motion=record {motion_text=“”}}; summary=”As part of liquid democracy, neuron holders can choose to follow the voting choices of other neurons. This can be done manually, but a very common and consumer-friendly way is to use the ‘follow neuron’ functionality in the NNS Frontend dapp. To further decentralization, this proposal is to add cycle_dao’s neuron: 5967494994762486275.”}}; neuron_id_or_subaccount=opt variant {NeuronId=record {id=5241875388871980017:nat64}}})’

Would you help me modify that to apply to my neuron to freeze ( id- 7705773937459451846 ), neuron to use to send ( NeuronId = record { id = 6_200_233_367_052_425_345 : nat64 } ), and my proposal?
The other thing that I’m not sure about is the proposal type and corresponding canister address. Would what I’m trying to do, freeze a neuron that was stolen from me, be the same proposal type? Would it need to send the proposal to the same canister id as yours?

I’m also currently trying to find the ID of the smaller neuron. I’m hoping to be able to query in order to find it based on the date/time of creation. Once I have it I want to include it in to my proposal too.

Does this look correct?

$ dfx --identity proposals canister --network ic --no-wallet call rrkah-fqaaa-aaaaa-aaaaq-cai manage_neuron ‘(record {id = null; command=opt variant {MakeProposal=record {url=“https://someonestolemyicp.com/”; title=”Perpetpually freezing of neuron ID 7705773937459451846”;action=opt variant {Motion=record {motion_text=“”}}; summary=”I need this thief to realize that these neurons will remain frozen until this situation gets resolved by returning the neuron to my possession, in order for the thief to be more likely to cooperate.

This person contacted me as a Kraken employee, who was supposedly contacting me due to my account having been hacked. But it was him the whole time. He was logged into my account at the same time I was. He was creating addresses as I was deleting them. But he was telling me that it was a hacker that was doing it.

When I asked how I can verify that he’s a Kraken employee, he verified my reading of my full SSN and drivers license number. I thought he was legit. while events were happening with him, I was even receiving Kraken emails that looked legit, down to the header info. I was so shocked I could hardly even speak. I didn’t know how I was going to protect myself.

He then texted me a site to use to disconnect my wallet from my Kraken account, www.stop-kraken.com I told him that this makes no sense. But I was too freaked out to think clearly. The site looked just like the Kraken site. I must have told him that this does not make sense 10 times. But eventually I somehow gave in. Since I wasn’t thinking clearly I fell for it and I entered my seed phrase and ID into his site (in order to cancel a pending transaction, per his instructions). Then he stole my id and neurons. I also had created a neuron of 500 ICP, staking for five years.

I called him back and left a message. He called me back the next day. He continued the front of being a Kraken employee, but then he changed and told me that he took over my Internet Identity. That it is in his control now. And that he would give it back if I give him $50,000 in Bitcoin. When I told him that I can’t do that, he soon hung up on me.

Freezing these neurons, the main one with 14,381.378558 ICP, and the smaller one with 500 ICP) is most likely the only way I can get my ICP back. At least he’ll know he can’t cash in. Please help me out by approving this proposal.
”}}; neuron_id_or_subaccount=opt variant {NeuronId=record {id=6200233367052425345:nat64}}})’

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For what it’s worth, if it can be helpful, you can also create a MOTION proposal on the dApp I created for this purpose:

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@Onadrac i am not sure you know this based on the description of your problem, so I thought I’d clarify just in case:

  1. There are many types of proposal types
  2. Most the proposal types (if passed) alter the code the ICP blockchain
  3. There is an unique proposal type called “motion” which does NOT modify the code of ICP
  4. Motion proposals are for the community to deliberate or vote on their intent.
  5. The example I wrote is about motion proposals.

So when you submit a motion proposal, all you have to do is describe what you want people to vote on.

Here are examples of motion proposals (confusingly aliased “governance” sometimes):

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  1. This is very long, and I can’t type check on my head but roughly looks right

  2. The main problem I see is that as a voter it is unclear what you want the community to do. What does freeze a neuron mean? Does that functionality even exist? If it does not exist, are you asking someone build it? If built, Who gets to press the button of this functionality? How do I know it won’t be maliciously used? Honestly, I have so many questions, I suggest you ask for a design proposal on how to even design this mechanism, but I guess it’s reasonable you first start by making known your situation.

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Hi @Onadrac,
similar to @diegop I am not quite sure what you intent to do in / with the proposal. Could you maybe try to clarify?

Also, it might help if you provide a bit of background in this post. I assume you refer to this, but this might not be clear for new readers of this post.

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Hello Diego and Lara. I’m asking for this based upon the suggestion of Dfinity support. Here’s the message that I received from Dfinity Support:

May 8, 2024, 10:30 EDT

Thank you for contacting the DFINITY Support Team. The Internet Computer is a decentralized blockchain, and as such, DFINITY has no access to accounts or funds. You could try to submit a NNS proposal to freeze the neuron, the NNS has not accepted any such proposal in the past.

Best,

DFINITY Support Team

I’d imagine that getting the proposal type is important. Because I only want to have this applied to the neurons that were stolen from me. Not make a change to the code of ICP altogether.

And to further illustrate who i am, what happened to me, and what I’m asking for, I created this site with the evidence attached to it. https://someonestolemyicp.com/

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I literally cannot stop thinking about this scenario. I am actively following this as an educational opportunity and to support you (for what it’s worth) so if you could continue posting updates and sharing whatever you’re able to along the way I for one would appreciate it.

I just have sooooooo many questions still

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Sure. Thank you for your support. I’ll keep you as updated as I can. Thanks again!

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It looks like they had me barking up the wrong tree. Instead of suggesting that I make a proposal to freeze the neuron, they should have told me that what I have to do is make a proposal to the developers to build a freezing mechanism into ICP. And that’s because ICP doesn’t have a way to freeze anything at this point. So a general proposal would never get off the ground. I’ve initiated the request with the developers. Hopefully they help me out here.

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Well, I’m unsure if I would say barking up the wrong tree… There are a lot of questions right away that would/will need clarification for sure and I’m a John Smith little guy nobody in the community… I’m going to assume this is happening and not a well-choreographed event and give you my best reply because I would hate to be in this situation, especially, with the amount of cash involved.

Coming from an average user/ voter for example, it seems like this could be easily brushed off as either a fake situation, or if not, then what if what you ask them to create starts poking at a genie in a bottle that after it’s out, it’s out, and a lot could go wrong.

What would this imply for my neuron?

Can anyone just start making allegations and start tying up neurons in court hearings?

How deep can deep fakes go to maliciously manipulate any feature we may make specifically for this case? Because again if they design this feature or function and it’s approved through the NNS, it might mean it’s done and cannot be undone once it’s designed. It could end up reallocating time and resources, and end up creating a function like @diegop is saying where people would ask who gets the right to press the button in the future. It’s such a grey area that needs addressing for sure.

Just from what I know of the governance and voting system on the IC does work exactly as DFINITY explains. For better or worse, and I suppose it’s subjective if it’s better or worse. It is rather technical though.

So, even if/when these situations occur the legal professionals and investigative teams looking into your specific case will end up needing individuals with a technical skill set to help facilitate whatever your geographic area does in/for this type of cybercrime situation. This brings up even more questions… and again is dependent on so many geographic locations, rules, and regulations, and all of them have their standards of doing things…

So assume this is real, and you’re just an investor that this, unfortunately, happened to under just the right circumstances. The investigative team will eventually need to do their own “leg work”, and will need to formally reach out. Wait for them to do so.

Easier said than done? Yup. but again, this is tricky…

I know there is a six-month time constraint/ worry. However, it is six months, not six hours. So, there is that…

How did they get your II just from your info off Kraken though? I’m not familiar with Kraken only Coinbase, and Coinbase does not hold information that has to be directly linked to my II at all. What did they ask that made you give them information on your IC Identity and not just limit it to the typical crypto KYC procedures? Even that would be bad, but not this bad. Again not denying the possibility of stress…and Coinbase has a process that is sketchy as well… So, I hear you…

I’m interested in seeing it play out, and I hope it plays out well for you. I just think there is a lot the right people should/ will need to do for your circumstance.

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Thank you jsull9. Well said. And, yes, I agree, there are a lot of things that need to be put on the table and cleared up. And that does take time. I just hope it can be accomplished within the 5 months that I have to work with.

I would also like to know more about the difference(s) between making a proposal like this one and a motion proposal, which were the instructions that I was following? As seen here: How-To: Create an NNS motion proposal - Internet Computer Wiki

To answer your question about how they got my II from Kraken. It wasn’t that they got it through Kraken. What happened is that I got a notification about a suspicious login on my Kraken account, then a few minutes later this person called me up on the night of May 2nd.

He identified himself as Sebastian from Kraken. He asked if I was in the Salt Lake City area right now. Because that’s where the login was found to be. I told him now. He said he would kick that person off.

So he told me that I should login and change my password to Kraken, So I did while I was on the phone with him.

He told me that he 's seeing some strange activity on my account. That addresses to send crypto off to were being created as we spoke.

He recommend that I delete them. As I did more were being created. But it was him the whole time. He was already logged into my account. And me changing my password did not affect him.

As he did certain things I was receiving Kraken emails. I checked the validity of the emails. They were legit, down to the header info. This made his call look legit. He also gave me my full SSN and driver’s license number.

At a certain point, he was telling me that there was a pending transaction that will go through if not cancelled. That it’s coming through from a wallet that is connected to my account. I told him that there’s not wallet connected to it. He said there is somehow. That maybe the hacker connected it? And he said that it looks like a ICP transaction.

So he texted me a link to www.Stop-Kraken.com The site has since been taken down by the host/registrar. But I saved the pages and code behind it before then.

He said that is a secret site that Kraken used for this purpose. To disconnect wallets from accounts. So I logged in with the very same Kraken password. The one that I just changed it to. And i was in.

That’s where I entered the recovery phrase of my ICP internet id/wallet. That’s how he stole it.

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Well, 5/6 months is a good chunk of time. Plus if they dissolve and they move you can follow that paper trail. Forensic accountants are talented people just saying… So, if/when they cash out or anything you can watch it. That’s the great thing about blockchain.

To be fair, I have had a phone call or two with Coinbase that I wish I never had during a moment of highlighted stress. So, I could see how in the moment under the right circumstances anything is possible. As a nerd in this particular area, I’ve read stories of individuals way more qualified than I end up in even worse situations just because of a “one-off situation”. Life happens man… I hear you…

That Stop-Kraken page though I would’ve seen Kammie off the MTV show Catfish be like

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and that would’ve been the end personally. Hey, it’s done and done. Don’t cry over spilled milk. Let’s just pick it up…

If they created that site and used a VPN to disguise their IP etc. etc., I know Nord and most VPN companies are required to comply with various agencies, and if subpoenaed or given a warrant will comply and they can determine who the user is on their end and help track it down further… It gets complicated and easier said than done. Plus, you’re right… Time is of the essence and the legal nonsense could take a lifetime literally. So, it sucks…

I’m still not sure why you connected anything to do with your II though… there was no reason for your II to be involved at all even if it was genuinely Kraken. No one specifically asks for your IC information, unless they knew you had x,y,z. Which makes me think it could be a “closer to home” scenario.

Sebastian, in my opinion, must’ve known you had x,y,z and this was (assuming it’s real) a well-choreographed inside event.

To be honest, I wish we had grants or bounties where people could create all the scenarios under the sun and run them out with “fake accounts” and just create case examples or a standard set of procedures for these things.

For example, a grant of 100,000 used to run a scenario where someone “stole my ICP” and now we walk it through from top to bottom fully knowing it wasn’t stolen, and we did it to essentially test these types of circumstances.

Send all these fake scenarios right to court and play them out like they are real… then the precedent is set. No excuses.

However, this would take way more resources than my head could wrap around and is a bit off-topic… Just food for thought…

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Oh and btw creating a motion proposal will essentially waste your ICP in this scenario… I would save that cash and throw it in the legal fees slot lol Unless you’re trying to get a wider audience drawn to your posts here on the forum…

Motion proposals are from my perspective “temp checks” on how the community perceives or is receptive to a certain idea. It just highlights areas of work being done IMO… Even if it was approved it wouldn’t be able to “freeze” anything. It would just let people gauge the idea of “freezing anything”…

So, it would be like using 10 ICP to see if the community at large would entertain the idea of having a freeze function. Then if they do or push it through as a “yes”, then you would still have to do as @diegop says and create a separate proposal to create this functionality.

I do not see a motion proposal going over well in this space… which would make me think asking for the feature is just as unlikely. However, if you can come up with a proposal to directly ask them to create the function it might be worth using the 10 ICP to see that answer…

IMO that is probably why you’re confused about what type of proposal (if any) to submit, why the team is telling you a motion proposal isn’t ideal for your situation, and why asking for the feature developed is.

That is why even a small voter like myself would be asking a million and five questions on what this means moving forward… It opens up pandoras box

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I agree. When I saw the site www.stop-kraken.com I should have realized something wasn’t right. But here I was talking to a guy who knew my SSN and DL #. There was somebody with full access to my Kraken account. Since there’s mult- function authentication I wonder if they hacked my cell phone too. He’s saying things to keep me from settling down, keep me freaked out. Make me worry more. And my life’s savings investment is hanging on the line. And this is happening at 10:30 to 11:00 PM at night by now. I wish I could do that over again.

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Maybe instead of freezing it, put another step in there before being able to cash it in, which would be a step that a thief would not want to take?

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Hey, the internet can be a pretty scary and convincing place… I hear ya. I’m not going to judge.

You say SSN and DL so I’ll confidently assume you’re in the USA.
I do not know how they got your DL# or SSN… or full access to your Kraken having used the Multi-factor-authentication method (MFA) as a sign-in option. This would be beyond my skill set… See places like

Use the investigative team to help you figure out the best reports to file and get a new SSN

Sign up for something like this and watch your report thoroughly

Contact your local Department of Motor Vehicles and replace/ change your driver’s license and number.

Sounds like a typical case of cybercrime/ Identity Theft… Probably more. Not sure. I’m not a lawyer or anyone with authority. I’m saying all this as someone whose interest you’ve peaked and who thinks this scenario should be considered/played out with caution and taken very seriously.

Again, just to reiterate, I do not have the skillset or authority required to be able to help you on the technical or legal level. I’m not a lawyer or an advisor. Just Joe Shmoe trying to pitch in…

I’m not sure it would be possible or plausible to put an additional step or layer of security in. If so, I think what the team is saying is that it cannot be done for a singular event (aka just you and these neurons and your IC ID). It would have to be something they make and then it could be used thereafter for everyone with everything inside Pandora’s box… Then the worms crawl out of the can and the same guy who robbed you is using the same function to now hold everyone’s neuron hostage in long-term court hearings… Or, who gets to say when that button or function is used? What country’s authority is thee authority? They don’t pay me enough to ponder these questions… I’m just a regular guy with his thumb up his butt looking for candy in all the wrong places…

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I’ve been wondering whether it was an inside job for a while now.

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