Caffeine.ai When delivery? Can it be delivered completely onchain?

General
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Right now, I am starting to have doubts about when (not “if”) Dfinity can deliver on game changing Ai applications, like caffeine.ai. I’ve made my thoughts known on other platforms but some have dismissed it as being rooted in price chasing and FUD.

To keep it short, my doubts stem from seeing missed deadlines on some of the major Ai stuff, like Wasm64 and Ai prompt engineering. Then the constant teasing that such stuff will be released “soon” doesn’t help when weeks and months have already passed. It is my view that taking too long to deliver might lead to ICP missing its moment to shine if other projects are doing similar. Then if the time for release keeps getting pushed back even further and further, some may start questioning IF these Ai features are even possible to build entirely onchain.

Btw, I’d love to be shown wrong by having Caffeine.ai and other major Ai features being released “soon” - as in days or weeks.

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It’s not possible in days or weeks. It’s not possible to do it on-chain. Even doing it off-chain will only work for very simple dapps. So, it is basically just hype, and this is probably common knowledge to most technical people.

That said, implementing it off-chain could become feasible for moderately complex dapps within a year or so, while achieving it on-chain might take several more years.

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Hopefully not the case.

At this point, I wouldn’t mind if the major Ai stuff are initially released in some hybrid model involving both web 2 infrastructure + blockchain infra. I say initially because then they can have the product out so that people can at least start using it. And meanwhile, Dfinity can continue working to bring it completely onchain. I would imagine that they can make the case that they can bring it onchain eventually by pointing to other things that they’ve been able to have onchain, like web applications and some Ai language models.

Maybe Dfinity will run into a limitation that they can’t overcome. Or maybe not. We’ll see!

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When a contract is put on chain, the truth it provides is self evident and self effective. Whether it was generated on chain or off is of no effect.

Unless for some reason you don’t have transparency of the code in which case on chain generation can provide provenance and accountably and proof of non manipulation.

But transparency is probably better.

There are more applications for on chain generated AI in other domains.

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I’ll add that since motoko is easily compiled and because AIs are actually pretty good at writing, running compile, provide errors, revise loop can be pretty strong. I have my doubts that a complete novice will be producing competent, secure applications before 2026, but toys and non-serious and non mission critical applications are certainly going to be possible. It is also the worst it will ever be right now.

As a reference AI wrote the first 80% of the test suites for our icrc-75 and 79 projects. They all take bit of oversight but the amount of work is massively reduced.

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Also, teaching people to use Cursor to create simple dapps or modify existing ones with open-source code conveys a far more positive message than hyping the Caffeine AI dapp.

In a world with an abundance of block space, culture matters quite a bit.

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Good things come to those who wait

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How long should people wait, esp, if a project is passed a deadline? Months? Years? No set time?

I don’t think there’s a perfect answer as everyone’s patience levels will vary. In general, I think it’s reasonable for people’s patience to begin to dwindle the longer they have to wait for a project, especially if deadlines have been missed or keep getting pushed back.

Edit:
Oooh, is one or 2 weeks a reasonable time? Proposal: 134196 - ICP Dashboard

Screenshot_15-11-2024_173459_dashboard.internetcomputer.org
Screenshot_15-11-2024_173459_dashboard.internetcomputer.org1920×877 64.7 KB

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That’s very important to keep in mind to tame expectations. Thanks for that perspective!

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Found some solutions from a very good article that covers deadlines in the tech world:
The Hidden Cost of Deadlines: The Race of Quality and Time in Software Development | by Testify | Medium

Balancing the need for timely delivery with the need for quality should be a priority in software development.

In my opinion, it’s important for people to understand that when it comes to developing software, there’s always a trade-off between quality and time. While it’s true that there’s a point of diminishing returns where additional time invested doesn’t significantly enhance quality, the reality is that we often push to cut time as much as possible. This demand to meet deadlines frequently leads to sacrificing the quality of the product just to say it’s finished.

The solutions … from the same article…

Projects should start with approximate deadlines that can be adjusted as they progress, allowing teams to reflect actual progress and address challenges as they arise. As the project advances, these deadlines can be refined based on real-world progress, giving a more accurate prediction of when the project will be completed. By defining a realistic rate of progress early on, teams can better estimate the final completion date. This flexible approach helps to balance the need for timely delivery with the importance of producing a high-quality product.

Clear communication with stakeholders is essential, emphasizing the benefits of prioritizing quality over strict deadlines and setting realistic expectations from the start. Regular check-ins and transparent communication throughout the project help identify potential bottlenecks early, allowing timelines to be adjusted as necessary.

That last point I felt wasn’t done in a clear way. There were some Twitter posts made by Dominic that they are trying to make the product “sufficiently mature”, but I’m not sure everyone could see a deeply buried comment. Not to mention all of that might be drowned out with the constant teasing of “coming soon” shown with a picture of a studio as was the case in one tweet. That felt like an event where you are hyping the crowd but then keep them waiting long, and on more than one occasion.

Hope this article helps provide some clarity.

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Dom W says “fully on-chain” in almost every sentence. I believe the job is difficult and tedious and that reflects in ICP token. The market doesn’t lie. I bet ICP is not misunderstood but knowledge that is going “slow” is perhaps well known.

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HOLY SHIT. Y’all really this negative.

Lemme give my take on this.

So numero uno - ‘It is my view that taking too long to deliver might lead to ICP missing its moment to shine if other projects are doing similar’.

This is Mfing crazy. Lemme remind you ICP is the ONLY blockchain than can host fully on chain dApps and applications. 99.9% of ICP moon boys don’t even understand how revolutionary this is. It’s on the same level as Bitcoin in terms of positive effect on species as a NETWORK.

My n word, no other blockchain is gonna take ICP’s shine by Caffeine AI coming out later than you want. Other blockchains may use an LLM like Clause or ChatGPT to build off chain dapps and integrate with a shitty blockchain token ledger - THIS IS NOTHING NEW, NOR IMPRESSIVE, but simply buzzy wordy shiney shit marketing to attract retards.

Numero 2. IT IS NOT A PROBLEM IF CAFFEINE AI IS OFF CHAIN, because the dApps it will build WILL be on chain. Lemme phrase it this way. If a developer builds an on chain dApp is it a problem if his 3d real body and bones and blood and brain are on Earth and not on chain - NO of course not, BECAUSE THE FUCKING dApp is ON CHAIN.

Boys lock in…

Numero 3. I think you guys will doubt what Caffeine AI will trigger.

Lemme pain the scene.

1 million people with an idea use Caffeine AI to build a dApp.
Pessimistically assume 1% kinda work in a shitty way = 10,000 shitty dApps.
Now as they make their way into the ecosystem (think on X, influencers, small ICP fanboys use them). There visions can be shared. As their visions are shared within the networks the shit ones die and get no use, BUT the ones with potential will attract more ideas and people willing to help. This means the best shitty dApps will find teams that can build them into working polished dApps.

Pessimistically assume 1% of the shity dApps gain traction and get polished up nice. = 100 dApps.

So if we assume super pessimistic numbers the ICP ecosystem gets 100 news dApps per 1 million creations. What you gotta remember is pyscos like me who see ICP is literally the coolest thing ever for a species will build 10+ dApps. But let’s just say Caffeine brings 100 new 9+/10 dApps per 1 million idea prompts. This WILL be crazy for the ecosystem and as ICP gets more eyes it gets more builders and this crazy flywheel fucks right off to the moon.

Another thing to keep in mind these 100 dApps will have gone through crazy layers of testing, refining, using, team building etc. Take 1 million ideas, now find all the best ones, then let passionate communities (users and devs) naturally gravitate around them and nurture and grow beatuiful flowers for us all to share in a community garden.

CAFFEINE AI GIVES US FREE MFING SEEDS BOY. Before to plant a seed you needed a team of devs or shit tonnes of cash and time. Now you just need a good fucking idea.

MORAL OF THE STORY.

Numero 1 - No other garden (blockchain) has soil (network) like ICP.
Numero 2 - As long as the seed (dea) grows into a flower (dApp) in the soil then it’s in the garden (blockchain). I don’t give a fuck if the rain comes from moon and the light comes from the sun. THE DAPP IS ON CHAIN…
Numero 3 - CaffeineAI will let the community plant 100x-1000x more seeds so get ready for a FUCK TONNE more flowers.

Hopefully this cleared some of y’alls FUD

You 2 need to stop watching the price like a magpie and relax and breathe cuz y’all are in the best tech in crypto. If you a pranging out get some BTC(the big daddy). and TAO (the new way economies will work - don’t worry it ain’t an ICP competitor)

P.S if you need market guidance - don’t do it alone or watch retarded youtube videos. You need 1 man and 1 man only Siam Kidd. He posts free content but the best stuff is being in his paid for course.

If you take the free route also watch Raoul Pal. They will guide you through this bull cycle.

CAFFEINE AI WILL BE LEGENDARY

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I agree with most of what you’ve said. Where you and I probably differ is when it comes to what that means and how we act based on that. In my view, having the best blockchain does not mean that Dfinity should take all of the time in the world to release some of the game-changing Ai features, like Caffeine.Ai. ICP is currently, the only project that can host web applications 100% on the blockchain but this does not mean that other tech companies won’t ever catch up nor that they won’t find other ways to bring about decentralization, good security, and data ownership.

For instance, Super Protocol is on the way… They are partners with Nvidia (scroll down to Partner’s section - https://superprotocol.com/).

Super is a ready-to-use AI/Data marketplace and Decentralized Cloud powered by Confidential Computing.

Super Protocol has built an eponymous AI cloud and marketplace based on the principles of confidentiality, decentralization, and self-sovereignty. In the Super Protocol cloud, confidential computing technology protects data during execution, while blockchain-based decentralized networks provide orchestration, transparency, and verifiability of all processes.

"As Super Protocol is a decentralized cloud, it does not have a central data center.

Source: Exploring the Case of Super Protocol with Self-Sovereign AI and NVIDIA Confidential Computing | NVIDIA Technical Blog

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Maybe the invite code could be posted in this forum…? :thinking:

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The competition is indeed on the move.

I know @dominicwilliams has several arguments for why Caffeine will be superior, centered on the design of the IC itself. And unlike Endorphin or Badlands, there appears to be a functional product that is already well along in development.

Here’s to hoping this one lives up to the hype, and in time to make a splash :beer:

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I’ll just reiterate my position again because I am cautiously optimistic about Caffeine.Ai.

Criticisms (mostly relating to execution of this product):

  1. Taking too long to be released given all of the missed deadlines and constant teasing that it is coming “soon”.
  2. We have no public demo yet while Dominic has been doing private demos for those in his circle. I was hoping Dominic’s latest Ai video would’ve included a live demo of Caffeine.ai in use, but none was given.
  3. I also disagree with some of the responses that say to just be patient. What’s a reasonable time frame to wait given my previous 2 points? Not even a live public demo? Seems like some are willing to wait indefinitely, and I think that’s unreasonable.

Positives (mostly speculation since product is not out yet):

  1. The vision and messaging around the purpose of the product is good! Democratizing web development. Self-writing internet! All good stuff that the average consumer would rally behind - mass adoption.
  2. Caffeine Ai will be unique compared to the Ai prompt programs of other tech companies. There’s no where else where a user can use Ai to create, host, and update their web app all on one platform. And this will enjoy all of the benefits of being on the blockchain, like data ownership, user can monetize which ever data they want, tamperproof, etc.

Just to preface my comments again so I’m not accused of FUD…
My criticism is for just one particular aspect of ICP and not the entirety of the project. They could do much better when it comes to delivering on the major Ai features that are being promised. Besides that, the ICP blockchain is phenomenal - chain fusion, layer zero for Bitcoin, fastest blockchain, etc.

:beers:

I also want my coffee :coffee:

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