SNS Foundation Named Neurons (Call to Action)

Governance
52

I think the goal is to build a decentralized organization that has a lot higher transparency and censorship resistance than others. Do we have a list of banned/deleted apps hosted on Google, Amazon, or Microsoft? I don’t think they are publishing these. They are probably hundreds per hour. If the NNS deletes something, that will be visible to everyone. The cloud mentioned can also alter anything without a trace, the NNS can not.
The NNS code updates are also following governance proposals. If stakeholders are unhappy with a code update, they can propose for it to be reverted. If Dfinity doesn’t do it, someone else will. So even with 100% code voting power, the foundation can only push unwanted code for a few days. The whole reverting thing won’t be pretty, but the stakeholders, no matter who they were following will manage to enforce their will.

Let’s take a look at what’s required from a person to be able to vote on code changes:

There are many organizations fighting each other while changing web browsers daily. Each has its own implementation. To be able to write something that works in a web browser securely is an art form (because it’s a crazy mess). Using its latest features and keeping up with all changes requires a very narrow-focused specialist.

You will also need someone who has been specializing in Rust and Web assembly and understands all of the craziness on a lower level. And that person has to be familiar with the ICP protocol and all NNS-controlled canisters, CDK, and all libraries used.

Someone who understands the hardware used, secure enclaves, networking, other Internet protocols, operating systems, and such.

A cryptographer/mathematician who summons secure algorithms from thin air.

A failure in any of these will result in total failure of the whole system.

Let’s see what SNS DAOs may require (just a guess, not a definitive guide to it)
Entrepreneurs who can understand humans and find a way to imagine & facilitate products for them. Developers who can use what is available to create these products. Usually, these developers will rarely write their own libraries. They are mostly trying to make sure they provide features users want. Then there are also developers who are helping with bringing users in and working on marketing. Ofc we are not talking about something novel like MidJourney, but even then, these developers will be focusing on making that novel software that has nothing to do with anything else.

I believe the intricacy and depth are far greater than what meets the eye.
We’re all like construction workers in a way, but would you trust a painter to handle your electrical wiring?

2 Likes
53

Well I was just commenting on how I thing things will end up getting to where we want them, but yeah the sooner we get there the better!

It would be great to see SNS project teams supporting protocol development sooner rather than later, and DSCVR has already done exciting work on the edge network thing, which seems nearly at the level of protocol contribution.

1 Like
54

A bit of context is missing here. The thread was about NEW projects getting built on the IC New promising projects on IC
The 4 ones were trending on twitter and getting attention by the community. I also asked anyone to add to the list if they know any other project, and as you can see Dragginz was mentioned.
As far as I knew according to : Dragginz - a virtual world on DFinity you were already working on it since Jul 2020, so it was not new that is all. I am happy to support the Dragginz project in any shape or form possible and the same goes for any app on the IC.

No I don’t, I am not aware of their neuron status.
Also the first time I engaged with Cluster I got banned from their discord and even on twitter by Scott who was then the community manager, because I wanted to take a look at the code and called it a Cluster Fuck since it was hyped based on the whitepaper only.
BoomDao I see having huge potential if they continue the work they are doing but in my opinion its not ready yet for the SNS.

55

Yet Voting Power is centralized & we censor via NNS & Nodes, so all we have is transparency.

It is disingenuous to say NNS Code Updates abide Governance Proposals. Governance Proposals are nothing more than glorified polls, there is no weight or execution correlated to them unless DFINITY decides they like the proposal.

This is showcased within the Followee Reset Topic, in which the NNS came to a consensus that a Followee Reset is beneficial (one of the opening statements is that its core purpose is furthering decentralization - I don’t want to hear the “that proposal was about something else!!” excuse), and DFINITY decided it wouldn’t be beneficial for them to execute, as they’d lose their 99%+ super majority.

I, and many other stakeholders were unhappy with this & it was pursued in forums & within proposals for months to follow - all of which DFINITY decided to shut down & reject. Is it possible not enough people care? Maybe. It’s also just as likely not enough people look at the NNS & Forums anymore.

This Followee environment has created passive NNS participants who had their voting power assigned for them, or manually assigned it (there’s also no measure to the quantity that felt forced to remain a followee to maintain APY), enabling a set & forget mindset leading to centralized control.

In theory your idea sounds nice, but in reality, it doesn’t happen.

Within your statement, you’re trying to generalize all code based topics under one umbrella, implying that any level of governance contribution requires all of the following skills.

This quite simply is not the case; please refer to CodeGov - they have a range of developers verifying replicas on a weekly basis, each with varying experience.

Additionally, I’m going to stress again - I’ve recommended that each Foundation reviews internally, and makes a responsible decision in regards to the contributions they’re willing to make. I’m not saying people should propose replicas, but it would be helpful if there were more people blessing them.

Each scenario will result in a different quality & quantity of contribution - that’s natural.

While you have a fair point in regards to entrepreneurs driving SNS DAOs rather than developers, I think you’re severely downplaying the developers of these dApps & those within our ecosystem. Most SNS DAO Foundations have decades+ of industry experience & business acumen.

Regardless, should we not be aiming for more contributors & helping amend mistakes rather than shutting out contributors for the potential they make mistakes? It seems like an expedited route to an echo chamber when nobody other than the DFINITY Foundation is good enough to contribute.

No, but the plumber, electrician, and foreman are going to have to sit down & have conversations about where (not) to drill. It’s a group effort.

2 Likes
56

@Accumulating.icp
I feel that we do need to talk about many of the topics that have been outlined here but I would like to add that following is all I need at this point as most of the updates to this project needs on the NNS and SNS are better in the hands of the DFINITY team with it’s many brilliant team members and not in the hands of neuron owners like @borovan who recently sent me a personal message.

Sorry @borovan, just Delete it, if you want to show your other face then write it here on the forum.

As for the SNS I would like to see less information within the ICP forum and contained within the SNS project itself.

Let’s not forget that anyone can build on the IC and a neuron owner can support any project on the SNS and we as NNS neuron owners should not give a view even if it is a rug pull.

While DFINITY has built it, what has come to the SNS has been a disappointment for me so far but I see @borovan has been an early contributor to most and then gives financial advice.

Let the SNS projects do their own thing and not interfere, sounds like a pumper and dumper to me.

Just to be the Devil’s advocate
What would you suggest as a need or change to the NNS or SNS or maybe a list of changes that we should consider before DFINITY gives control to Neuron owners so we have the discussion before waiting till the last minute and maybe a list of changes that we should follow through, ready for that day.

57

I could not disagree more, knowing many of the projects that have come to SNS and what they are trying to build. You cannot expect a finished product to do an SNS raise.

Its like saying in 1995 that all websites are bad and the internet is going nowhere as everything looks like ass and has far too many flame effects :fire: :fire: :fire:

It won’t take long for you to be disproved or proved right… I don’t see what you have to lose?

3 Likes
58

Sorry mate, who the hell are you?

1 Like