I understand the concern, but I think 100 ICP for rejection is gatekeeping. The average user loses the ability to create a proposal, which is the opposite of decentralization.
How about keeping the 10 ICP rejection fee and adding a waiting period if a proposal is rejected? For example, if this ysyms person has a proposal rejected, they lose their 10 ICP and can’t create another proposal for 10 days.
Could they geta round it by posting 10 proposals at once? Sure, but then they lose all 100 ICP when the 10 are rejected AND they can’t propose again for 100 days (10 x 10).
All I want to say is, please don’t do that, I meant don’t raise the proposal reject fee to 100 ICP, all you need to do is just stay clam and not panic, imo, I meant just forget the crazy guy until you become crazy, moreover, burning some 10 ICP is good for the community anyway.
First, I want to say thank you for offering a counter proposal that stays within the narrow boundaries of my original proposal. I really appreciate the tactic you used to arrive at your recommendation. I am willing to accept your recommendation of 30 ICP. I will update the original proposal with this new proposal reject fee recommendation.
Second, it should be noted that, as stated in the original proposal, a prerequisite for me to submit this proposal is that it must be fully crowdfunded. So far, there have been no donations. Hence, I will not be making this proposal if it is not crowdfunded. I consider crowdfunding to be a reasonable method of validation that a proposal is worth making to a least a fraction of the governing body. In some ways, it’s like having the proposal “seconded” by others. If it does get crowdfunded, then the proposal will be to increase the proposal reject fee to 30 ICP based on your suggestion.
Not everyone can be a named neuron. Not everyone wants to be.
Everyone should have a voice. @ysyms is indeed doing good to the community, and you just have a different opinion.
In fact, raising the rejection fee to 100 ICP is a crazy idea.
Maybe ICP is going in the wrong direction.
I haven’t said much in this thread, but I’ll note that I generally dislike “sticks” and prefer “carrots”. 10 ICP is already a hindrance to aggressive experimentation with the NNS. I’m staunchly against a higher amount. I’m doing all I can to get the threshold back to 1ICP because I think that is where we find the most experimentation and ability to find the best ideas.
I’m very against punishing neurons as it could be used as a weapon or threat in unanticipated ways. Instead, we should incentivize them to be well-behaved (Sybil is the real problem here as anyone can always spin up a fresh, anon neuron).
Punishments for Neurons discourage doxed participation in the same way that higher ICP fees discourage participation. They are just minus ideas when we should be thinking about win/win scenarios.
I’ve linked to what I think are better ideas that require very few code changes elsewhere on the thread and in other topics. The Threshold solution imposes a burden but not a penalty and it is a very low burden that should not be a deterrent for any reasonable NNS proposal.
This community is getting divided more and more. I now see on Twitter some strong supporters giving up, frustrated with the NNS and how this works. The 50% + 1 certainly lead to division, TMO.
The problem as to why it will be getting worst and worst is because we are locked in with our financial and cannot go away, like some people have asked. So looking at other blockchain is impossible if you had faith before in IC enough to lock some investment at first. Unlock my 8 years for 3 minutes and I would be the first one to leave you all alone. Believe me. No matter the lost.
Temporary fixes, try, fail, rinse and repeat is a very bad business strategy.
Having blockchain scientist managing taxes is bad business strategy
Having investors only voting on tech development is bad business strategy
Having blockchain developper creating an election system (NNS) is bad business
Can keep going like this… but will stop here.
For success, need a specialist team for each department so they take the right decision.
It is a free for all right now. Dfinity should take a pause and think about all this. Why so many people unhappy, frustrated, always seems to be fighting?
It has been 18 months now. NNS is getting worst at dividing people, not better. So, this is the first major flaw to fix.
Sad to see.
And will add to this that the NNS team is not too buzy to program permanent fixes. They have and are still spending tons of time on the ultra complicated tax modulation stuff where 49% of voters have voted against and has absolutely NO benefit to IC.
Clearly a lack of establishing the right priorities
I understand what you are saying and I agree that the proposal reject fee would ideally be low. I’m sure we will get there some day after significant changes occur and I will be fully supportive. I think we have a problem that needs to be dealt with now and I’m simply proposing we use the only mitigation tactic that is readily available today. I don’t expect everyone to agree.
I also want to point out that the proposal reject fee is not a punishment for proposals that pass. That fee is only retained by the NNS if a proposal is rejected. In my opinion, higher proposal reject fees offer a new opportunity to incentivize a proposer to experiment with the NNS. If they are willing to embrace the crowdfunding concept and they pursue their proposal for the right reasons, then they will be able to keep that proposal reject fee when the proposal passes since it is locked in their personal neuron. I think it is an under recognized opportunity for experimentation and
Thank you. I really like these polls because every individuals have the same voting power, 1. So it shows much better what the majority of people want other than what the whales want.
We have a much better picture now.
Maybe we should review why there was a 1 ICP rejection cost in the first place, it was designed to avoid spam proposals. It’s a temporary solution by itself, the question it doesn’t solve is should a normal proposal that doesn’t go through deserve the same penalty as a spam/offensive proposal?I don’t think it should be
Some of my proposals are obvious rubbish proposals, but I can add my point to a reasonable proposal, how should we differentiate? So how to distinguish between spam/offensive proposals and low-quality/unreasonable proposals is the problem that should be solved. (As for the spam proposal button, it seems to me that it is likely to be used maliciously, and it still does not prevent the broadcast of proposal content.)
Back to this temporary solution. In my opinion 100ICP can’t stop me from launching proposal 79944, because in my opinion it is unbelievable for DFINITY employees to say “if don’t trust a centralized company do leave IC”, no country will admit that a that must trust DFINITY‘s Web3.0/Metaverse. Building a public chain with this concept is bound to fail. Building a public blockchain with this concept is deceiving me and the market. So even before 79944, the proposal rejection cost has come to 100ICP, I will still initiate this garbage proposal, the difference is that I will write more opinions and nonsense. Of course if the rejection cost was raised to 1000ICP I would shut up completely
I really enjoy your participation in this ecosystem @ysyms. You are often very thought provoking. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Now if I could just get some crowdfunding since we know your endpoint for titrating away the advertisement spam.
Seriously though, I actually suspected 100ICP would not have discouraged you from 79944 since it was done out of a strong sense of frustration. Everyone has a price they are willing to pay on principle and to be honest no proposal reject fee will stop spam for everyone all the time.
My hope is that we can start using the proposal reject fee as intended and at least mitigate most spam proposals. It may take more spam before that happens.
You make a good point that perhaps there should be a two tiered proposal reject fee. A higher fee for true spam and a lower fee for proposals that are simply rejected.
The spam proposals for more reward submitted many times, so these caused 70015 raised, it’s reasonable even i don’t like it.
So far, 79944 is the only spam proposal for advertisement . I think we need waiting for more similar intended proposal submitted(maybe 3 times and above), then we can consider to make a mitigate spam proposal.
For Now, I don’t think we need to do any mitigate solution but try to work out a permanent solution.