My position is Adam lacks any evidence to support his claims of corruption.
You agree to participate in the debate?
Like I said it’s a waste of time if we can’t all acknowledge that he lacks actual evidence.
If he can produce evidence I’ll engage in the debate.
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I take this as a Affirmation of the debate format, 0xFord document and your postion is noted
It will be up to adam to produce any evidence and undeniable sources/ proof to present his arguments, after each motion and arguments presented there will be a vote to determine indeed if a party has produced sufficient evidence, this is not up to the participants of the debate to decide.
Thank you for your participation, I do ask you to stay within civility and retain form presenting arguments / or attacks as more people will reply, if you like to propose a certain format / debate resuluiton feel free to do so
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This part is ridiculous. The why would anyone agree to such restrictions and potential punishment of their own freedom of speech.
I get what youre trying to do but such rigidity is the antithesis of decentralization.
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Propose a better one and we can move forward, this is the format i thought could work, feel free to correct me, please do affirm if you agree to participate in the debate in a civil manner
Sure, agreed but just as a starting point we should pin some facts to start of. Alex has his stance on most things while Adam has his believes set in stone about bad NP’s . I would very much like to address some concerns raised by ICP Hub Poland’s lead @krzysztofzelazko and none the less the issues raised by @ritvick here while also reminding everyone that this current GRANT is/was supposed to be a temporary solution. It was never about any NP’s attack against the whole IC network nor the split to fork another network for Yral as stated unfortunatley by Adam. Attack against Codegov was purely based on Alex’s take on how funds should be distributed and that escalated with the Synapse issue. I do stand by CodeGov 100% and never ever had any internal issues regarding anything. I tried my best to part ways with Alex as best as I could even though I agreed that all he did was question every Dfinity made choice and try to find reasons to reject proposals that were technically correct but lacked summary and or such just stalling the inevitable. Seeing him lower his standards was the last drop in the bucket and should be obvious to anyone following proposals and not just to Dfinity. His last stand against the Swiss subnet is pretty much all you need to figure out his angle. So yeah open to a civilised debate that should have nothing to do with the developer forum, even though there are some aspects regarding mainly education working group that I would like to address as well.
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Lets wait till everyone is on board, we have the correct format that all will agree upon, you again make arguments and state your postion which is not the goal of this post, the goal is to get everyone on board and present your arguments within the debate not on this forum post.
If you like to propose anything reegarding the Format or debate / any motion or adjust your postion feel free to do so, please retain from arguing on this post.
Here is my proposal:
Anyone on this forum can say whatever they wish. All the time. The best ideas can win organically via public opinion. This is a fundamental principal of freedom of speech and the backbone of decentralization and web 3 principals (in my opinion).
If you think I, or anyone else is out of line then have the personal courage to say something. All of us have days where we could have done better.
That would be ideal. In reality, this is not the public square. This is the DFINITY forum and if the moderators believe somone is violating the community guidelines they can silence them at their discretion, because sometimes we need to take a break.
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Part of the issue is the mods don’t enforce the rules for everyone.
Only people not named Adam get actual consequences for breaking rules here. So maybe a debate where he post his evidence publicly would be a net positive for everyone.
It certainly would end the speculation and conspiracies from being leveraged to sway misinformed individuals.
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The debate won’t be happening on the forum, Dfinity has no power over what will be said presented or argued there, best ideas will win, This post is about getting the debate format correct, agreed upon by all parties, then we can proceed with where and when.
Do you agree to participate?
If so state your postion, and if you agree with the document ( if not post a adjustment to the document)
Thank you
Who says that Adam will be the one arguing the postion?
There are 4 motions
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DFINITY’s voting practices in Voting Neuron Grant (VNG) elections undermine the decentralization of the NNS governance process. (Derived from concerns about selective adopting/abstaining overriding community votes.)
-
The SNS launch mechanism is inherently flawed and enables fraudulent practices, necessitating immediate structural reforms. (Derived from investigations into self-funding and spam transactions in projects like FomoWELL and ICPEx.)
-
Node provider onboarding and management on the ICP network are insufficiently decentralized and vulnerable to exploitation. (Derived from allegations of fake providers, clustering failures, and reward concentration.)
-
Voting Neuron Grants promote centralization and self-interest rather than genuine participation in ICP governance. (Derived from claims that grants act as “bribes” leading to top-down control.)
Each of them will have a group of people taking a stance to argue For this or Againsit it
There will be teams and or indiviuals arguing, Adam can propose a team member to argue the postion he doen’t need to argue it himself,
”It certainly would end the speculation and conspiracies from being leveraged to sway misinformed individuals”
If there is no attempt at a resoultion 4 years from now we will still argue about it, at least let us try if he fails to make the case then let the chips fall where they may
Not to be against but all 4 motions are incorrect. derived from whatever !
- there is no Dfinity’s voting practice regarding this , and it was clearly stated from the start how they will vote.
- SNS has nothing to do with this, even so NF is still halted if you follow Lara’s post .
- Since season 1 there was no need to onboard new node providers except to reuse the excess hardware purchased before. Fun fact … never mind Drag went about over head to become one
- Again something that is/was temporary solution sparked debate from ADAM that could have easily founded a review crew, is now getting payed and by this leaving other parties outside , to do what they already did and nobody noticed. Way to go
“SNS has nothing to do with this, even so NF is still halted if you follow Lara’s post .”
NF is paused indeed I did not mention NF in the motions, Not sure if you have been following other discussions but this is one of the topics that sparked the outrage the ICPex sale was the catalysts to pause the NF
”there is no Dfinity’s voting practice regarding this , and it was clearly stated from the start how they will vote.”
If you have read the discussions this is what they disagree about
”Since season 1 there was no need to onboard new node providers except to reuse the excess hardware purchased before. Fun fact … never mind Drag went about over head to become one ”
This has to do with the “Drain the swamp” discussion
Im not sure if you understand the concept of a “motion” which is a statement, a proposition which came out of the arguments, you are stating your postions here, that is your opinion and others may think differently about it
Nahh I want to ensure everyone gets the proper opportunity to present their arguments / case so its very transparent and aduitable, would love to have you on board for this or anyone else who you think could present your case, do let me know if you like to participate we already have some people here that agreed <3