I think you are sort of winning me over. Possible for you to do a proposal of some sort, but in a way that does not include any damaging/emotion-whipping/hyperbolic statements? You actually make sense that we need the evolve ICA to take center stage, so that DFinity and other ecosystem participants are subordinate to it.
1 Like
Good feedback. Tbh, I started as you suggest, and if you look back at my earliest comments you will see how I gradually became more and more concerned, as the issues kept growing and the responses kept not coming or being super defensive.
Weirdly, this time I’ve been much more direct, and there seems to be more traction and response. It seems that sometimes you need a bit of emotion to reach people’s hearts and not just their heads. But though I have been emotive, I genuinely don’t think I have been hyperbolic. If anything, my portrayals were better than the reality that emerged when Zane and justmythoughts fact checked me!
Holy crap, Gian’s gone full bond villain
1 Like
Seriously get out of here with your nonsense FUD
1 Like
Not commenting as a Dfinity employee here (and not knowing anything about Gian Bochsler), I will point out that the $880B shown is the (slightly outdated) full crypto market cap, as reported by coinmarketcap.com, not the assets managed by Bochsler Finance.
6 Likes
I think you should be banned from this developer forum for all the misinformation, disinformation and time wastage. @diegop
1 Like
Interesting. Happy to be banned if that’s what moderators consider fair. I would have thought someone being able to acknowledge errors was a positive, not a negative. I have been consistently stating I would be very happy to be corrected, on anything, and demonstrating it.
I also don’t see how my mischaracterising Gian as a lawyer rather than an investor affects any of my substantive points:
- The whole of Dfinity has just 2 people in complete legal control
- The whole of ICA has the same 2 people in complete control
- Definity and ICA together concentrate an overwhelming amount of voting power
- Dfinity transferred 5 million ICP ro ICA at genesis
- ICA was set to autofollow Dfinity in NNS voting
- ICA recently increased its voting power as a result of staking decisions
- The Dfinity VP for finance stated the voting for both Dfinity and IC are handled by a small group of professionals
- Two people have the power to shut down, set the roadmap, make financial decisions and transfers, purchase equity in companies, and decide what gets rolled out when and how, without consultation, without disclosure, and without constraint.
- Those two people have the highest level of privileged information, voting power, technological and strategic say so, and in a position to benefit financially from that combination.
- There is zero visibility for the community into the financial solvency or governance process of either Dfinity or the ICA
- The ICA is advertised as an independent membership association, but the only members on the steering group, on whom the addition of new members depends, are Dom and Gian, which is the exact opposite of an independent members’ association.
- This creates a single point of failure, and the codebase, infrastructure, finance, direction are all, entirely in the hands of 2 individuals, who, were they to be disqualified, incapacitated or for any other reason abruptly left those boards, would leave the entire IC in danger, without even considering conflicts of interest and the vulnerabilities that creates.
- The correction, from a token Swiss lawyer to a major crypto investor with interests across crypto markets, makes the 12 points above worse than I originally painted, not better.
No skin off my nose if you ban me because you don’t like the facts above. But I suggest if you do ban me, that you will be cutting your own nose to spite your face. If you genuinely think my raising the 13 points above is more concerning that the 13 points themselves, well, I guess people who ignore history will be condemned to relive it, and we’re not exactly short of relevant examples in crypto’s brief history.
Ignoring the message to shoot the messenger, is not how you engineer robust systems; nor how you invest rationally. It may be a way to keep the IC dream alive, but not to make it a reality.
In any case, you will be glad to know: it’s Monday, I’m less under the weather, and I have work to do and projects to build. This is (no promises!) likely my last PSA for a while. Your favourite fud bogeyman will be lurking for a while, watching with interest, how this unfolds, chipping in if I can’t resist, or if I have a bout of free time.
Good luck @tsetse, @Zane, @justmythoughts and others who care about the IC enough to ask questions that might help it survive. Rooting for you, and believe it or not, for the IC, whose public vision I appreciate and enjoy.
Thank you so much @free for informative, courteous and valuable input. A great example of a great engineer team. Rooting for you and yours too.
Later, all.
3 Likes
Look guys, I have no idea who Leamsi is, but reading this conspiracy theory nonsense I suspect he does not have the best interests of the Internet Computer | ICP ecosystem at heart. @Leamsi perhaps you would like to prove us wrong by telling us who you are, what your background is, and why you are whipping up these strange storms of FUD and disinformation?
Every day, I and others at DFINITY are battling real challenges. People who know me know that I am honest and have only one focus: helping this ecosystem to succeed. I work tirelessly despite endless attacks by shady and sketchy people hiding in the shadows - who usually turn out to be funded by competitors, or have their own selfish agendas. So please excuse my skepticism here.
I simply do not have time to get drawn into discussing batshit conspiracy theories. And I will not. Other than to ask who the hell is Leamsi, because everyone needs to understand more where this is coming from.
For the record. The ICA is meant to be a members organization, but there are two challenges that have put its development on the back burner: (1) there are far more important things for the team to be working on right now, (2) we could not transfer legal ownership of ICP to the ICA for tax reasons; essentially that it would involve a gift, and in Zürich, where DFINITY is based, a substantial gift tax would be involved. So for now it controls voting neurons for security purposes (distribution of keys etc) and that’s it. We have ideas about how to fix this, and develop the organization, but it’s going to be a major undertaking, and we don’t have the bandwidth right now. Period.
As everybody can see, the Network Nervous System controls the Internet Computer, and it’s completely transparent. It has been a HUGE success, allowing the Internet Computer to evolve in real time. There is nothing like it in blockchain. Every other chain gets updated by a secret cabal of insiders, or a coordinating for-profit company, getting “validators” (running on cloud) to update. If that’s what people want, they can go to another chain.
We are moving into an absolutely brutal market situation, in which Ponzi economics, and blockchains that have learned how to sell chimeras, have turned everything on its head. We at DFINITY will remain focused on doing our best to help the ecosystem through this incredibly difficult time, and out the other side in a winning position for the benefit of everyone involved - which is our not-for-profit purpose. We will focus our time and efforts accordingly. For those at the sharp end, there are very real challenges we are grappling with seven days a week under insane pressure. We will not waver, but it’s time for those hellbent on injecting poison and toxicity into our ecosystem to leave, or explain more about who they are and why they are saying the things they are.
That’s all I have to say, as I have to get back to work.
19 Likes
Thank you very much for your response @dominicwilliams . Hugely appreciate your taking the time to do so.
Will DM you my personal details so you see I am just a normal dev and wannabe investor doing due diligence and coming up with really problematic issues. I think given the recent shenannigans with Roche et al, it’s entirely fair enough to be sceptical or cautious. Won’t do it here because I don’t want to be harassed.
However I do think the questions remain:
-
are you not concerned that the entire IC rests legally, entirely and exclusively on yours and Gian Bochsler’s shoulders and what would happen if you had to abruptly step off?
-
When, as you put it,
is it FUD to ask for some way of verifying that Dfinity is solvent (for the same reason you want to verify me rather than take me at my word, and I consider that natural)?
Is it FUD to ask, given Dfinity and ICA are non-profit foundations, for the kind of financial disclosures that are standard among non-profits worldwide?
Is it FUD to ask for an equally standard Register of Interests, to verify (not take on faith) that conflicts of interest are taken into account and there is no self-dealing or benefitting from insider knowledge and ecosystem control, of one person, their relatives and friends or companies they are invested in?
Honestly speaking, would you, @dominicwilliams or Gian Bochsler, invest in any company or venture that did not give you visibility into those things?
Would a little transparency and accountability not make ALL such questions, honestly or nefariously motivated, a non-starter, so that instead of wasting your precious time answering me, @diegop could point to the public records and say see? It’s all there?
If you were me, a developer and potential investor, wanting to seriously invest time, heart and money into the IC (I love the vision and engineering team!), would you, if you learned 2 people controlled it all pretty much absolutely, let no one else in to the governance, and gave no visibility into the finance, the governance or the decision making?
12 Likes
Just DMd you:
"Just to let you know. I’m [redacted], have zero investments in Crypto, and love the IC vision. I’d like it to succeed and can only see it doing so if it addresses its governance red flags.
Https://linkedin.com/in/[redacted]
Blog [redacted]
Happy to jump on a call: [redacted]"
Anyone else wants to verify me, feel free to DM
7 Likes
Final post for now: I just “outed” myself to a cross section of the community in this thread: @Zane @ildefons @free @dominicwilliams @justmythoughts @LightningLad91 and even to @singularity who called for my ban.
I am on your (IC’s) side.
Hey, just to safely(ish) but fairly prove my intent, I am trusting you all with my identity.
[My Linkedin]
You haven’t all agreed with me, one of you called for me to be banned, some haven’t commented but are veterans here and liked both @dominicwilliams’ post and my reply.
I believe you all engaged in good faith, so I trust you will not dox me because you disagree.
Just to let you know. I’m xxx. I’m a social entrepreneur trying to make the world a better place. I founded and run, on a shoestring, the (non-profit xxx).
Xxx
You can find its published accounts and filings here:
Xxx
I have zero investments in Crypto, but love the IC vision and thought it might be my first. I’d like it to succeed and can only see it doing so if it addresses its governance red flags.
I am a software engineer with a special interest in the environmental impact of Web2 and Web3 and you can find my blog here: xxx
I am currently exploring whether I can help major blockchains green their impact through building a dashboard that calculates and shares with users their “Software Carbon Intensity”. Also by introducing carbon-aware computing into mining operations. If I succeed, I may well have ties to other blockchains in future, as a green software dev. I would have loved to offer that to IC as well, but I get the feeling I may not be welcome here much longer.
If that’s the case, I wish you, and IC, from the wings, all the best.
1 Like
You are not all that. Get out.
Dude, the IC has failed your due diligence. Move on. As an investor I look at dozens of projects each year and if find anything that I consider to be red flags I simply write the project off and move to the next thing. There is no need to be writing these dissertations and bothering the community and developers who aren’t interested in your conspiracies. Do you do this for every company and project you’re doing due diligence on? Any links to your critiques of other projects you have invested? Where were you on FTX, Celsius, and dozens of other scams in the space? Frankly the community has entertained your nonsense for far too long.
Move on.
4 Likes
It might bother you, but I’m sure I’m not the only one who appreciates @Leamsi taking his time to share his due diligence with the hope to improve the IC.
Personally I only do due diligence on projects I really care about, no point in wasting hours researching a project I have no strong feelings towards.
It’s impressive how after all that has happened this year in crypto, there are still people with the “If you don’t like it go away” mindset.
17 Likes
Yep, I am. Moving on, that is, from this issue. Will keep a curious eye, and that’s that.
With regard to your question, I did begin all my due diligence referencing my research on other coins and problems I felt were systemic to crypto. You’re welcome to find those early posts.
I am stunned by people’s seeming shock at the amount of time I’ve spent on this.
I invested a net 16 hours of reading posts here over 27 days, and maybe the same writing them: because the IC vision called to me, and it still does, and I really hoped there would be answers.
4 working days of my life in 4 months, to decide whether to spend months or years building software on the IC. And people here are like what??? You investigated 4 days? You obsessed or a hired by a rival or something? Who DOES that?
Like… any sensible person?
Finally, no, I did not delve into FTX, Celsius, etc, because the gambling side of crypto bores and depresses me. A few people who spend a lot more than 4 days setting themselves up to win whatever the roll of the dice, building fortunes on thousands who trust their life savings to them on 30 minutes’ starry eyed “research”. I wasn’t into IC for the money, but for the technical possibilities that attracted me as a professional web developer.
I am delving into some other Web3 efforts now, and hoping one at least has decency at the root. I’m hopeful of what I see from Kadena now, and there are other smaller, Refi efforts that appeal. You can be sure I will be writing, blogging and podcasting about them, whether what I find uplifts or disappoints me.
12 Likes
‘The devout are always urged to seek the absolute truth with their hearts and not their minds’ - Eric Hoffer
2 Likes
@Leamsi thank you for revealing that you are a real person. I will not dox you, but maybe you want to dox yourself, to help people understand you.
Leamsi told me this:
Just to let you know. I’m [real name redacted], have zero investments in Crypto, and love the IC vision. I’d like it to succeed and can only see it doing so if it addresses its governance red flags.
I will accept this statement as being made in good faith until proven otherwise. Leamsi, thank you for showing me you are not another paid troll. However, we do not want any more conspiracy theory-style investigations into the DFINITY Foundation or its governance on our social media.
For those happening upon this thread, I will repeat: the Internet Computer blockchain is fully controlled by a permissionless transparent DAO, called the Network Nervous System (NNS). The governance and control of the Internet Computer is fully automated and decentralized, by design. Anyone can propose improvements, for example by submitting motions to gather support for a particular idea, followed by the submission of compiled code that upgrades the protocol, which if adopted, will be automatically applied to the node machines hosting the network. Through the NNS, the network adaptively improves not just its efficiency, speed, functionality, and tokenomics, but also NNS governance, recursively. It is a self-improving network, and this is one of the reasons it is succeeding. Anyone can participate, either by submitting proposals, or by staking ICP and creating voting neurons.
For these reasons, it is wrong to conflate the governance of the decentralized Internet Computer network, which is self-governing, with the governance of the DFINITY Foundation. We are an independent not-for-profit organization that pursues a purpose, which is essentially 1. helping bootstrap the Internet Computer ecosystem, 2. developing World Computer technology and contributing it for use within the ecosystem, and 3. supporting ecosystem participants, with the ultimate overall objective of helping the ecosystem succeed as soon as possible, and driving what we call a “blockchain singularity”. We are not an ICAAN (the organization that plays a key role governing the internet), don’t want that role, and the network has been specifically designed to operate independently of an organization.
Inside the NNS, which is a kind of autonomous liquid democracy, many people do configure their “voting neurons” to automatically follow the votes of our voting neurons. For this reason, we often do not vote, to avoid accusations we somehow “forced” the outcome, albeit we do think our input matters, and people can unfollow us at any time. Thankfully, other named neurons are gaining prominence too, and are getting followed, which process we actively encourage. Mainnet is only 18 months old, and we expect this to continue for many years. But the DFINITY the organization is not somehow part of the decentralized Internet Computer network.
Although DFINITY is a not-for-profit organization, with no members or shareholders, which pursues a defined purpose rather than profits, we pursue our purpose very competitively, like a tech startup. We are passionate and relentless. Working here is not he same as working in Big Tech. We exist within a tech war-zone. We need to be agile and decisive. We need to keep some aspects of our operations secret to succeed. We need to defend ourselves against near-criminal blockchain “competitors” and their attacks (see the investigative journalism site CryptoLeaks.info, whose reports reflect only a small fraction of what we face). In practice, the foundation council just rubber stamps high-level administrative functions two or three times a year. However, I make no excuses for being founder, Chief Scientist and President of the council. We are a startup, not IBM.
One day we may be nearer reaching our objectives and the market will be more mature. We might be more like a corporation that effectively tends a farm on territory won long ago. That day, we might become a sleepy organization run by a committee. Or we might simply dissolve DFINITY and ask the NNS to take over direct decentralized employment of our team. But we are certainly not ready for that now, and have many more pressing matters to focus on. Having “investigations” of our governance on our forums is distracting and demoralizing.
So, I repeat, no more discussion of this here. Thank you.
18 Likes
How is this FUD? LMAO
You trust 2 random dudes with billions of dollars when they decline to speak publicly at every turn? Like sheesh dude, it’s been years and nobody can prove or disprove any claims made by Dfinity.
To be honest, you have contributed nothing to this thread other than make ad hominem attacks on legitmate criticism. Kindly shut the hell up and let the grown-ups speak.
3 Likes
As the creator of this post topic I would like to propose that we lock (not delete) this thread as the responses are at this point in time sufficient to answer the majority of questions that have been asked with respect to the ICA. Thank you for your answers and responding to my questions.
As much as I would like to believe the best of people, locking this thread will also prevent people who are actual trolls from bumping it to the top of posts on this forum, as has been done with many other posts.
4 Likes
Yup let’s lock this, but not delete. Hope my responses can make their way beyond this thread too. Big thanks
13 Likes