In case the irony is lost on anyone, unless I misunderstand (entirely possible - if so please correct me), I believe the irony is that if WaterNeuron is successful in its mission, it will make it such that nothing else like WaterNeuron will be able to get off the ground as an SNS (because it would require short-termist thinkers to support it, all of whom should have been eliminated as NNS voters).
I do still worry that it seems a little self-defeating in its mission, by using the Neurons Fund to facilitate the enticement of short-termist voters, while constructring strawman arguments to skew perspectives - but that’s just my take. I’m interested to see how this all unfolds.
Yeah I do not see how these yields would be possible without using the Neurons Fund to achieve such.
Well all of our neurons would give better returns if the Neurons Fund just gave us free ICP to stake.
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong someone from the team, but there is a maximum cap on the SNS participation, yet the ICP numbers used in the calculations for yield etc are more than the cap, this only indicates one thing. The expectation of NF commitment is built into the design of this in order to provide these yields.
There is a word for this, it has just slipped my mind … You know, when you use other people’s (or in this case the community’s) money to pay higher returns to early investors.
I’d like to see a document to show the yields on the off change the NF does not participate.
Besides being part of the DAO and being able to vote in the SNS governance, what are the benefits of participating in the SNS?
How exactly are nICP linked to the 6 month neuron? If I buy the nICP on a DEX, how does the system know the amount of rewards I’m eligible for when holding nICP?
Having had some time to think through what WaterNeuron is providing, I’m now in favour of this project. Thanks to @EnzoPlayer0ne for being patient with my questioning.
My understanding is that WTN is for voting and earning yield that is initally small in relative terms, but grows over time as more people buy up nICP (thereyby increasing the voting power of WTN holders). WTN seems like a sensible long-term investment (this isn’t intended as advice), attracting the sorts of long-term thinkers you’d want for participating in governance.
nICP on the other hand is for allowing staked ICP to change hands, rather than stagnating and not contributing to the economy. nICP holders relinquish the voting power of that ICP to WTN holders. I believe nICP holders will be capable of earning an abnormally high yield in the short and medium term (due to the rewards from the staked ICP put forward by WTN holders during the SNS sale), while approaching levels that are closer to the standard NNS yield in the long term. I think anyone with idle ICP will be highly incentivesed to trade in for nICP, receving 90% of the total yield while WTN holders receive only 10%.
But, I think a key detail here is that WTN has a max supply, so that 10% yield should just keep growing (in absolute terms) if I understand correctly. The potential popularity of nICP could stand to make this 10% yield (shared between a fixed number of WTN tokens) pretty sweet in the medium to long term.
Regarding the SNS sale, the benefit of particpating early appears to be the favourable exchange rate for WTN tokens per ICP (divide the amount distributed by the min or max ICP to raise).
Full disclosure: I’ve participated in the WTN sale and may now be wearing rose-tinted glasses. Please don’t take any of this as financial advise. I’m more interested in discussing and understanding the potential long term implications for the ecosystem and state of IC governance.
It’s also entirely possible that I’ve misunderstood certain details, so this post is as much an attempt at seeking confirmation from others as it is about answering questions.
Thanks @Lorimer for that input. I think I understood the reply to my questions and will attempt to reply them explicitly here. Would be nice if @EnzoPlayer0ne or @WaterNeuron could confirm
What is the link between WTN and nICP?
There is not direct link. nICP holders are the ones providing the funds for the 6 month neuron, WTN SNS investors are the ones providing the funds for the 8 year neuron.
WTN holders can lock their tokens in the Waterneuron DAO and receive 10% of rewards from the 8 year neuron and 10 % of the rewards from the 6 month neuron. So if the 6 month neuron grows substantially in the future, which is the goal of this project, this inflow can become quite interesting.
Besides being part of the DAO and being able to vote in the SNS governance, what are the benefits of participating in the SNS?
Basically the same answer as question 1.
How exactly are nICP linked to the 6 month neuron? If I buy the nICP on a DEX, how does the system know the amount of rewards I’m eligible for when holding nICP?
This one I still don’t understand. Any input from the team?
How exactly are nICP linked to the 6 month neuron? If I buy the nICP on a DEX, how does the system know the amount of rewards I’m eligible for when holding nICP?
You can think of nICP as the right to some portion of the 6-month neuron. When you unstake nICP at the protocol level, the protocol uses an exchange rate to determine how much ICP you will get in return (in 6 months). The exchange rate is the amount of nICP in existence divided by the total amount of ICP in the 6-month neuron.
Thank you. So I understand that nICP are only really staked when they are locked in some canister provided by Waterneuron.
Another question: is there any way that the 8 year neuron can grow in the future? Cause I understand that it’s mainly funded by the SNS fundraising but I don’t see another way how funds can flow into it.
I put together a short video here that briefly explains how WaterNeuron works, and another short video here that briefly explains why I personally participated in the WTN sale. Hopefully this helps people.
I believe it grows via the Kiwi, Papaya and Watermelon SNS rounds that are spread out at key intervals based on total value locked. Note that the 6 month neuron also contributes to WTN rewards, and this can keep growing based on users converting to nICP.
I’m genuinely impressed by the level of thought and planning that’s gone into the Waterneuron project. While it’s clear they’ve drawn inspiration from successful models in other blockchain ecosystems, the team has done an excellent job adapting these concepts to the unique environment of the IC.
I’ve spent considerable time analyzing WTN’s potential impact, and I believe it could be a game-changer for our ecosystem. The way it approaches governance and liquidity issues is particularly intriguing to me. I’m convinced that both the broader IC community and the DFINITY Foundation should take WTN seriously - it has the potential to address some longstanding challenges we’ve faced.
After weighing the pros and cons, I’ve made the decision to support this initiative. I’m excited to see how it develops and potentially reshapes our approach to governance and staked ICP liquidity. Of course, I encourage everyone to do their own research, but from my perspective, WTN is a project that deserves our attention and support.
Only liquid ICP as it needs staking through WaterNeuron in order to mint nICP (if its already staked then it can’t be restaked). This is the answer I got when I asked the same question
Good point. I agree, it would be another game changer if this could be done. @EnzoPlayer0ne, any plans for something like this in the future? This could help gain support from individuals who already have the vast majority of their ICP staked.
I suppose the difficulty would be ensuring that those who have staked their ICP are not relinquished from the long-term commitment they’ve already made. They’d need to aquire staked WTN tokens that are equivalent in terms of long-term commitment. Without this, transerability of neurons would be dangerous and I wouldn’t be in favour of it. I suspect this is why WaterNeuron doesn’t support this use case (assuming it would even be technically feasible).
… You know, when you use other people’s (or in this case the community’s) money to pay higher returns to early investors.
I hope you’re successful in your stated mission. I’ll be following with much interest 
