Yeah, instead of going back and forth I’ll chalk it up so we will have to agree to disagree. Perhaps your area of the US allows for such leniency but I do not. Participating in any DEX swap unregistered with the SEC is a crime and could be seen as a tax evasion-like scheme (as previously mentioned).
I will say the law is the law. So, just because we interpret it differently does not mean that sitting in front of a judge they will “buy”, I did not interpret the law this way. Again, not a very good set of practices for any project.
Why am I concerned when I am in it for the long haul? Because, if in 8 years I still can’t purchase or sell ICP then I’m stuck with only what I own currently plus maturity meaning i’d run out of cycles and my project would be complete waste of time.
Again, this is not a plausible response as a one-person community member when I cannot even reasonably get a response from Dfinity or the team on the forum (98% of the time). Or even acknowledgment of my concerns here. This is the same as telling a child, “Well if you want to sell lemonade you gotta get out there and try” when the closest neighbor is 100 miles away, dead broke, and has their own dang lemonade a-he.
This confuses me though. How do you use Binance if they geo-block? Perhaps it was a miss communication/ typo.
again, this is not true in NYS, participating in swaps and unregistered securities is seen as either a tax evasion scheme or at the very least participating in unregistered securities or purchasing from an exchange not registered can land you with fines, on top of taxes. To put it simply (in NYS) using these “swaps” is illegal. I mean, of course, I could hypothetically get away with it. This isn’t the point, as the investor and or developer these should be the last of my concerns.
I do believe we have vastly different views on the IC and the direction things are heading this is fine. I am going to tag Dfinity members directly to see if they finally respond…
@bjoernek@diegop anyone or any help with what Dfinity plans on doing in this event would be lovely.
Binance and Binance.us are two separate entities. Binance.us operates inside the U.S., Binance does not. I cannot use Binance because they geo block U.S. users.
Ok, I haven’t read/heard about any cases or laws from NYS that say this. Maybe they just aren’t that publicized? I also don’t live there so don’t keep up on specific state laws for NYS. I would be interested in reading them if you have them easily accessible? Or any articles that talk about them? If not, no worries.
Just to throw this out there, there was a memorandum and order filed in the SEC vs. LBRY case today in the district of New Hampshire. The full document is HERE. Some interesting excerpts:
“the SEC asks the court to order LBRY to pay a civil penalty of $111,614 and issue an injunction restraining LBRY from violating § 5 of the Securities Act and from participating in unregistered offerings of crypto asset securities in the future.”
“I agree with LBRY that the SEC has not presented sufficient evidence to-date that Odysee, LBRY’s subsidiary, should be enjoined”
“As for third-party holders of LBC, the SEC has not argued in this case that they could violate the injunction merely by purchasing or selling LBC.”
“Given the SEC’s litigation posture, it suffices to say that merely holding LBC or purchasing it for consumptive purposes is insufficient to bring third parties within the purview of Rule 65(d).”
To have a bigger and broader vision on where the future is headed, I like to oversimplify stuff/concepts by knowing what the real intentions of issues is/are.
First I want to know the viewpoint from NYC regulators in US since they seem to be the most active in applying regulations. What is their goal here?
On a mega scale, is the goal to make it illegal to buy/sell ICP and as such prevent US engineers from IC innovation?
Is the goal to remove ICP from markets and prevent investors from buying or participating in any future IC projects?
Is the goal doubling down on the evasion of taxes by preventing all crypto projects transactions in the US?
Right now, Coinbase is going to have an absolute monopoly over the ICP token in NYS past July 15 when Kucoin bans deposits in non-kyc verifiable areas. You are not able to legally purchase or use these or any of the DEX’s on the IC until or unless they register. None of them (from my knowledge) have and yet they continue to sell and provide these services, while also planning on creating their own DAO/ token, another red flag for any USA user.
As for the Binance, you are right Bianance.usstill is not allowed in NYS. Binance as an entire company cannot be used in several states, Coinbase is the only legal exchange and they may have to remove it as well. Hence the growing concern and epic proportion of anxiety over no plan of action if there is no exchange to exit, move, or use.
Look at this excerpt from the SEC app developer case, “Without admitting or denying the findings in the order, Abra and Plutus Tech agreed to a cease-and-desist order and to pay a combined penalty of $150,000. In a parallel action, the Commodity Futures Trading Commission announced a settlement with Abra and Plutus Technologies arising from similar conduct.”
These are federal laws btw so anyone operating inside the USA breaking these can be held liable or at the very least charged and have to pay x amount in legal fees
Respectfully sir, there is no need for any of that to happen.
The courts would have to decide what is a security, and what is a commodity! And thereafter, companies can consider to register as needed. As far I am concerned it is in the best interest of the US to spearhead innovation on the IC hence they must thread carefully. The contrary would be a lack of innovation and massive loss in talent and productivity in what many might call the 4th Industrial Revolution.
Are you not reading the federal laws I blatantly pointed out regarding unregistered exchanges holding “swaps”? Are any of the DEX’s on the IC registered with the CFTC, SEC,or any of the FEDERAL requirements? If not then they should be geo-blocking USA users, or expect at the very least the lawyers fees, plus if unwilling to fight in court another 150,000 just to get rid of the fines and agree to never do it again.
This again, brings me to the point of where should or can US users legally sell, deposit, exit or continue to accumulate for cycles consumption? If Coinbase is forced to stop selling the token in certain areas, or all together and Binanance.us does the same.
No I have not read any of them and I don’t plan to. The articles over complicate simple concepts and I was asking simple questions but since you didn’t want to answer, I’ll go with my narrative.
Have you ever stopped to wonder what the people want? Forget about what NYC regulators are doing, have you talked to regular investors and have their viewpoints.
The first time colonizers came to Africa, they handed out Bibles to Africans and doubled down on the verses that told of stories of obeying masters, and forgiving enemies. Meanwhile they were looting Africa, killing, raping innocent civilians…committing crimes of humanity. And what were Africans supposed to do, read the Bible and forgive.
I bring that up to shade light on the power of information. Wrong information is dangerous and as far as I am concerned I am not wasting my time reading articles that have views that I know are wrong regardless of their validity. I know what’s right and what’s wrong and I have done my research and I am also well aware of where the future is headed. As far as I’m concerned the only crime is not paying taxes and that’s goes back over 2000+ years. However I don’t often see regulators doubling down on the Billionaires club to pay their fair share on one of the oldest crimes in the markets, which is unfair payment of taxes.
NYC can make their laws but they are not national/federal. Nor would they be used as a template in the Wild West. What’s funny about laws is, LAWS FOLLOW WHERE THE MONEY IS, and not the other way around; the market always regulates itself = equilibrium. So the question here is; are investors blind on the potential assets, productivity and innovation that might arise if they open up the markets to the 4th Industrial Revolution?
I have to stop and end this engagement here. These “articles” are federal laws, rules, and regulations with case examples… With all due respect, I have no appropriate response to this. You can have your narrative. It’s not exactly the reality of the global situation though. You can’t just ignore these rules simply because you don’t like them flat out plain and simple. No amount of comparison to x, y or z will be able to fight the law. The law is the law.
Hopefully, someone from dfinity or anyone who cares about the IC will start to understand the depth of what I’m saying and not just ignore the facts. We need solutions. If not, then maybe more people need to grab whistles and start blowing. How else is anyone to be heard?
If they were getting sued, you’d better believe they’d be more into enforcement. That’s the problem with copyright law, its normally up to the copyright holder to get something done. And other than making a big stink about it every time it happens, there isn’t anything else to do. The silver lining to this (I guess) is that it will create a bigger demand for authentication services.
Oh you are way behind in where this conversation led lol Copyright and Trademark issues are still a huge concern I have for these applications, however, what might be more concerning is the production and distribution of “unregistered securities” on “unregistered exchanges”.
I believe enforcement on these issues will come in the coming months, weeks, or days. I’m surprised IClighthouse, Sonic, ICswap, or any of the DEXs on the IC haven’t been slammed with lawsuits and (or) criminal charges for offering these products to anyone inside the US. As excited as the tech makes me and as much as I want to see projects succeed. I do not hope any of their SNS launches are successful if offered to any USA user because there are too many legal repercussions. It will be nothing but rug pulls just to pay the legal fees and agree to never do it again.
I think it’s a great project, and I hope it succeeds. But I also realize it doesn’t revolve around the U.S., or any state in the U.S.
You’re saying “we need solutions”, but who is the we? You’re not speaking for me. I’m guessing you’re not speaking for anyone outside of the U.S. If YOU want solutions to make sure NYS users in the U.S. are assured access to ICP, offer up some solutions, announce them to the community through proposals, etc. Create a named Neuron and put out your goals, or what you want to change. See if you get other Neurons to follow you. Get on OpenChat, Dscvr, etc. and talk about what solutions YOU are offering. Yelling, “We need to do something” to me translates to “You need to do something.” You’ll get a lot more traction if you offer up some of your own solutions to the problems you feel need to be solved.
To me, the “I’m only one person” argument doesn’t hold water, especially in this environment. This is the perfect ecosystem to invest your personal time in and use the tools available to gauge what other IC holders/stakers think of your ideas. If you don’t get the votes on you proposals, or the feedback is contrary to your thoughts, maybe it’s time to reconsider your strategy. Or accept that people just don’t agree with you at this point in time.
I believe I understand what you’re trying to get across, but respectfully, I don’t share your vision/concerns of what the future is going to bring.
It does not revolve around the US, however, if they want to continue offering their services in the US then yes, when it comes to serving the US community, it does revolve around them. You have to play by the rules of the area. Any project should know this, it is written in its own terms and conditions/ disclaimer. Yet, they continue to ignore and operate as normal.
Again, as quickly demonstrated known community members with their own narratives will attack you and create a hostile and toxic work environment until they force you to leave.
This is a completely useless task no offense. The only real way one individual could reasonably accomplish any real change is by reporting and (or) holding these projects, developers, and leaders accountable for their actions. Otherwise, they will just debate the subjective. That is unless the SEC/CFTC holds them accountable.
I respectfully disagree with this. Sounds like you’re 100% behind the SECs enforcement through regulation approach. I think it’s tragic for us in the U.S., but to each their own.
“One person can make a difference, and everyone should try.” - John F. Kennedy
“Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.” - Barack Obama
“the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do.” - Steve Jobs
I just want to take a moment and genuinely thank you @jwarner for your respect in conversation. I am not just saying this, but it has actually meant a lot.
Well, all this news is certainly disappointing and disheartening, but I don’t think web3 innovation can be stopped.
For one thing, we should soon be able to trade ICP for other assets like BTC and ETH, so if all ICP exits really were blocked we could just swap to another asset within web3 and then exit with a different asset.
As a last resort, we also have things like ntagle around the corner. That will allow for untraceable physical crypto transactions that will be as impossible to stop as the black market.
Where there’s a web3 dev, there’s a way!
At the end of the day though, I think the USA has mostly been posturing, and won’t end up being as anti-crypto as they are making things appear right now. We aren’t in the habit of inhibiting innovation in the USA, but we are in the habit of shifting narratives to fit our interests.
This is one of my (many) concerns though. Participating in an unregistered swap to exit a token that is no longer offered in certain jurisdictions could be seen as either a tax evasion-like scheme, or be fined for each time you “participate”. Swapping to BTC or ETH in certain areas would/ could still require violating these rules. Again I am not a fan. However, if someone wishes to be completely transparent, and operate legally in their areas then these unregistered swaps would not be plausible.
This is almost the exact scenario that unnerves me. Investors and developers should not have to consider the ethical dilemma of selling their ICP on the black markets. This is the rationale behind my whole initiative and reasoning for urging dialogue and opening up the difficult questions. This is why I urge DEXs to limit their services to non-USA users only.
To avoid going back into a conversation where I am attacked I won’t dive into that here. I have said my piece on the other DEXs on the IC post. I raised concerns that the blockchain was breaking securities and exchange laws and was met with significant retaliation.
Finally, I just want to take a moment to thank you for being respectful and engaging in constructive feedback. It truly means a great deal.
Goodmorning @jsull9 , I wanted to start by saying I respect what you’re doing, how gracefully you’ve conveyed your opinions, and the calm tone you’ve taken to address all rebuttals.
However, I regret to inform you that the people of this blockchain do not care for regulatory compliance - “Web3 has no borders”.
I’ve raised similar regulatory concerns within the following proposal, and received the same, negative backlash, reflecting the discontent with complying with regulation, as you have.
If you have an actionable solution, I strongly recommend you put it to proposal, as that ironically, is the closest you can get to an “honest understanding of community sentiment” - the forums are beyond an echo chamber & you will find little support here (as much as you deserve it). At the very least it documents the effort to amend the flaw, in the instance regulators do start to crack down.