Governance Centralization Risk from Liquid Staking Design

Im not ignoring, thats the fundamental point of my argument, that liquidity SHOULD be locked.

People SHOULD have to BUY MORE icp instead of keeping their liquidity.

But it could be so much more. Why not make it so that people have their vote represented?

It looks like that you’ll find any reason not to give people their voting power, which is fine. We’ve got a competitor coming soon. It may not have the Coinbase connection but it’ll be better for everybody as a whole.

2 Likes

They do have to buy more icp if they do anything to remove their ownership of that Nicp.

There is no money printer, there is no infinite money glitch. The icp stays in the neuron until unstaked. The liquid staking protocols address fundamental issues for liquidity in defi.

Adam, the team has openly stated they will be looking into and working on a solution to the one proposal youve made of granular voting.

The issue is you don’t want to wait and you do not trust the investors of wtn.

The cold hard facts of this is there will always be a majority and minority in voting. When it comes to voting in the nns there are always people who vote in the minority that at the end of the day their votes don’t matter because dfinity, and a few whales control all outcomes on there.

With wtn you don’t like the david fisher investor for whatever reason and are trying to spin up a narrative to give yourself a leg up when you spin up your shadow owned lsd. Everyone at wtn dao are hoping you can actually build competition so you can focus on building instead of witch hunts.

1 Like

Its not quite that simple.

The extra rewards nICP holders receive changes over time, and depends on the amount of ICP staker by nICP holders relative to the size of the WTN DAOs 8 year neuron.

Right now its a very attractive deal for nICP holders.

The more nICP holders there are, the worse the deal gets for each successive one. You could say its kind of shaped like a pyramid :wink:

Eventually when there are enough nICP holders the rewards flowing to the dao from nICP holders will exceed the rewards flowing the opposite way. Meaning eventually the nICP holders will be paying the dao to vote for them, not the other way around!

But its still better than holding liquid icp… this is why its bad for the network.

I am looking forward to your point of view when adam introduces his liquid staking solution.

1 Like

Dont worry i wont change my mind

1 Like

I know you wont. You have been consistent in your distain for liquid staking from the beginning. That is why there has been no middle ground on this topic between us. We believe in two fundamentally different things.

(Even with those different beliefs weve been able to have good conversations though.)

1 Like

Liquid Staking with vote > Liquid Staking without vote

lol, please tell me why that is wrong

1 Like

Although I’m not a fan of liquid staking protocols in general.

I think I would be more agreeable to the vision of WTN if:

The % of rewards flowing from the nICP holders to the DAO decreased as the number of 6 month staked tokens increased. This would make it less of a pyramid. This is not financially beneficial to the WTN DAO, it’s in the interest of nICP holders. I don’t believe the DAO would want to actually do this.

my issues with WTN are more economic, not so much to do with decentralization. I think most dapps are struggling to be truly decentralized, we’re just not there yet.

More peoples votes “counting” is better, obviously.

you believe 0.1% apy of the 6month neuron is too much for a dao that has the responsibility to govern in the best interests of the network? The daos job is to ensure the protection of the nicp users while the nicp users get to reduce concerns of informed voting and or confirming voter followings.

Liquid Staking with vote > Liquid Staking without vote

lol, please tell me why that is wrong

You openly just stated you blindly vote on wtn proposals. Why should I take anything you say seriously when it comes to your concerns of governance topics within the dao?

1 Like

logical fallacy, look it up, you’re literally a logical fallacy generator

I see.

Please tell me where the wtn dao doesn’t vote.

P.S. all nicp stakers will get wtn airdropped to them at 21m tvl in the protocol. Does this not address the concerns of nicp voter representation?

That picture while showing correct numbers is deliberately misleading as the protocol scales.

They created a spreadsheet early on to show the numbers at scale. Im not sure if this is what you’re referring to

What im saying is that 10% flowing to the dao becomes much much much bigger than the 90% flowing to the nICP holders as the protocol scales. Because the 6 month neurons will scale much faster than the 8 year.

And i think i would be more receptive to the project as a whole if the protocol adjusted itself to reflect this disparity.

Completely weighted towards the early adopters (ie. the dev team) It’s laughable.

You seem to be running out of narrative adam.

I think you showed your hand with the swiss subnet rejection spin. Please go build your solution and stop trying to spin up drama for your entertainment.