Denis I really want to believe that and I’m going to try to see from this perspective because the alternative is frankly daunting. Nevertheless, in light of recent discussions it was an uninspired choice of words.
DFINITY Foundation’s vote on Governance proposal #80970 (“Spam proposal”) and #86639 ("Temperature Check")
So uhh, me next ser?
@Accumulating.icp oh sorry, did I miss any of your questions? Sorry, there are lots of comments and questions. Can you please link to what I may have missed?
I believe he’s quoting Kyle from here: https://twitter.com/kylpeacock/status/1584943693739720705
Do you mean slashing node providers or neuron holders?
No worries, thanks for getting back to me @diegop !
Here’s the original questions;
And this one wasn’t directed at you (as I probably should have), but I feel as though you’re the only one in this thread who can answer the question;
@AndraGeorgescu why don’t you quote the entire point that was made? “…govern the protocol” is an important point. Who do you think does that today? Not a single named neuron governs the protocol today. It 100% belongs to DFINITY due to default following on All Topics, and rightly so. I would not trust anyone else (named neurons or otherwise) to govern the protocol and we are not moving in the direction where anyone else will at this time. There are no other contributors to the IC and there are no incentives for anyone to go there.
The previous paragraph addresses the desire for proper democracy. Token voting on governance is not democracy. The Synapse.m neuron has zero control over who follows us and we trigger more voting power than a lot of people, including me, are comfortable with today. Yet governance motion proposals do not govern the internet computer. They are an expression of opinion only with no enforceable outcome. Again, DFINITY alone decides if a governance motion proposal will be implemented because only they are contributors to the internet computer. My point was that if you want to have a voice in governance motion proposals, then we need PoH and 1 person 1 vote system. That’s a different system architecture than we have today. I shouted from the rooftops that we need more names neurons starting back in February and nobody except Synapse, Arthur, and ICDevs stepped up until recently. Tokenomic incentives drive change as we saw in February. It will take more tokenomic incentives and more changes to the NNS to drive additional rebalancing of voting power, yet I still don’t think that will achieve the democracy that we want. We will have these same conversations over and over and over. “Stop changing the tokenomics.” “We need an ethos.” “X named neuron has too much voting power (which somehow makes them corrupt)”. Etc etc etc. I’d like to see a system that evokes less visceral responses from everyone so people like you and me, as individuals, have a bigger voice. I created the Synapse neuron with 10 ICP, at the blessing of leaders in the ICPMN, and today we trigger 10% of the total voting power in the NNS. We have a well rounded, representative mix of voting members, who are well known in the community, who have dedicated themselves to voting with their own convictions on every governance motion proposal in ways that they believe are in the long term best interest of the IC. Yet, important people like you have arrived at this hatred of our neuron and are perfectly fine with calling us corrupt. I literally said that maybe we should consider that democracy should come from 1 person 1 vote so every individual has a bigger voice and our governance system doesn’t have to depend on named neurons that carry a lot of voting power due to follow selections made by others.
@wpb come on, man. This is a bit aggressive towards Andra from my POV. This is unlike you. I can understand why you are frustrated, but I think we can do better. Don’t let the internet (and it’s lack of context) drive you and us to this. I know it’s easy for me to say, so wanted to let you know I can see the obvious frustrations, but we can do better… even if it means writing and rewriting until your true personality and intent comes through. DM me a draft if you ever want second set of eyes (btw this is open invitation to anyone who ever thinks they need second set of eyes).
I had to say something because I think it’s important we have respectful tone in discussing ideas.
You are right. I was referring to concepts expressed by @kpeacock in that tweet, but didn’t know if he wanted me to publicly reference him on those ideas. It’s certainly not an NNS take home message that I have read from any official DFINITY literature. However, it makes a lot of sense in a lot of contexts and I can imagine a fully functional, decentralized, governance system could be created based on these concepts.
You are right @diegop. I will fix it. My apologies.
Oh his true personality and intent came through alright, don’t worry.
Wow. Why do you take everything as an insult or at face value? I’m talking about your pre-edited comment. We are all adults here and there is no need to throw tantrums. Nobody is attacking you or Synapse, and @AndraGeorgescu has been more than respectful and has only posted well-founded criticism to the current state of the IC governance.
My opinion is the following: It’s not a valid excuse to say ‘well DFINITY is the big dog and it controls everything!’, because if Synapse decides to push for a specific proposal such as the NNS Treasury, DFINITY may be coerced into implementing it in the purpose of maintaining the ‘decentralisation’ of the network and the usefulness of the NNS.
Nobody is attacking you, yet you seem to react heavily to arguments that put your position in jeopardy.
Ok thank you for your feedback. You are right I need to self regulate more.
This idea occurred to me, I don’t know if it could be debated.
I am not an expert on the subject and excuse me if I mess up due to ignorance, but if we want to increase decentralization and participation in governance, why not widely reward the neuron that proposes a proposal that is finally accepted and implemented by the NNS, those rewards can then be divided evenly by the followers’ ceded voting power (voting power) given to that neuron through liquid democracy.
The extraordinary reward, being amount pre-established by the NNS (from unassigned ICPs), would encourage not only the appointment of new neurons, but also their active participation in governance. In addition, since the reward is a fixed amount to be distributed, the neurons with less voting power (for different reasons) would be more attractive to the followers since, in the case of proposing and implementing a proposal, there would be more rewards to be distributed discouraging the accumulation of power and encouraging decentralization.
Obviously, this at the same time would encourage the active action of the community to look for the right partner periodically, discouraging passive voting and the stagnation of power that leads to apathy and corruption. for example, before creating a given Governance proposal, a contest of proposals will be held with a certain duration so that the community has time to develop on a certain convenient topic. The winner decided by Nns would upload their proposal to vote to be implemented. if it is implemented then there is a prize. in this way we would squeeze the greatest potential of governance and community intelligence
@diegop @Accumulating.icp @AndraGeorgescu @Kyle_Langham @theguy @CatPirate thoughts
From my end @AndraGeorgescu , I apologize for not more actively managing the forum threads. I do want the forum to be a respectful place and give folks feedback. I am sorry I have not been able to keep up.
They’ve broken @wpb, one of the most genuine and hardworking members of the community. I was in the same place yesterday and had to self edit a number of posts. They may have legitimate concerns but they are expressing them with malice and exercising close to extreme bad faith. It has been worse on twitter than here, but the passive agressive accusation of corruption are completely uncalled for. They are making this an awful place to try to contribute.
The people saying that @wpb is not being attacked personally are wrong. He has been attacked personally, especially on twitter. If it bleeding over here it’s because…well…it is bleeding over here.
Thanks for the contribution. This has second order effects which are undesirable. If rewards are there, people will compete for them. Sometimes over compete. Imagine a NNS that looks like a Russian Bitcoin mining farm.
We can keep refining though!
and why not before laughing we debate… for example, before creating a given Governance proposal, a contest of proposals will be held with a certain duration so that the community has time to develop on a certain convenient topic. The winner decided by Nns would upload their proposal to vote to be implemented. if it is implemented then there is a prize. in this way we would squeeze the greatest potential of governance and community intelligence
That’s a good idea. Doms done a few contests for things like the NNS design. Do you think we need to formalize those kinds of things?
[quote=“skilesare, post:126, topic:16156, full:true”]
That’s a good idea. Doms done a few contests for things like the NNS design. Do you think we need to formalize those kinds
I think so, debate in forums, contest announced by Dfinity in networks and finally the winner uploads the proposal to the NNS.