Then go explore please.
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take another step back and continue with your Kadena exploration
share your findings pleaseā¦if you will 
But what about investors who lost 97% of the value of their investment? Did early investors dump on them like you claim for ICP?
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Oh, I should have made clear there is nothing dodgy about the defence itself. It makes sense and if I was being represented, I would wish for something like this. It is simply an observation that, in terms of what I have been discussing, the defence as it stands currently is procedural rather than counterfactual, so, were Dfinity to win its motion to dismiss, it would not mean that manipulation, coin inflation, and privileged trading while 99% of investors were locked out and could only watch, did not happen: just that those facts themselves were not tried.
Likewise I understand why the defence would want to avoid getting into a factual defense when they could win on a procedural one, particularly given commercially sensitive interests. A successful motion to dismiss could be presented as vindication (even though my point is that it wouldnāt be) without having to address the substantive concerns of the plaintiffs (prosecution was a clumsy shorthand and the correction is welcome), or many in the community. Nothing to see here. Definitely best case scenario for Dfinity: weāve proven the lawyer who attacked us was a dodgy agent for a commercial rival, and the Court sided with us. End of.
If someone then asks: so did the court establish that you did not engage in ethically dubious, self-enriching, market manupulative action? The answer will be no, but the question will not be heard.
My main point here is nor legal. Did Dfinity and Williams break the law? Above my pay grade.
Were they dishonest, unethical and extraordinarily self-enriching at the cost of 99% of ICP investors, and profit in obscure yet demonstrable and eye watering ways? Even the supportive evidence Dfinity adduces in its Motion to Dismiss would seem to suggest that.
Is it past history, time to turn the page, and pin our hopes on the Internet Computer to transform society, decentralise and democratise the planet, and make ICP investors wealthy in the process?
With genuine, honest sadness, I think not. One thing is having grave systemic challenges: technological, governance; economic; environmental. If at least you can trust that the people solving them are good and honest actors with the best interests of all at heart, you can hope that brilliance, persistence and commitment will win through, and keep on investing in the āgreenhouseā even at a loss, chipping in your hard earned dollars to give a beautiful project a chance. If you then make money on top, thatās a bonus.
That is how I approached the whole thing when I first came across it, even when I spotted a huge number of constraints and challenges.
But when you have a single man sitting atop a pyramid built from soooo many peopleās losses, when the ledger transactions demonstrate without equivocation that a tiny number of individuals launched Genesis at peak value, a value based on the investments and enthusiasm of a huge range of early adopters, and then sold and made billions while locking out all the investors that drove that very value, and then opened the doors to everyone as the value crashed, not arbitrarily but specifically due to those early transactions, thenā¦ well, wishing something to be as good as you know it could be, sadly doesnāt make it so.
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You lost me at Kadena 
Kadena lmaoo oh no no no
Ah, a rational investor then. Because tribalism makes money flow, sharpens decision making and increases happiness. As every towering investment thought leader always says: āmy crypto is better than yours!ā
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Will do! As I say, very early days. I hugely respect and trust @jwiegley who is their new CTO. The technologica vision and team also seem distinctive. Their technological innovations are impressive and there are structural and financial choices that make it seem on the face of it less vulnerable to the structural distortions Iāve observed in other crypto. But Iām aware that is was a similar first impression from ICP and here I am. So, as I explore Kadena, I approach it like I did ICP: with sympathy, open mindedness, a positive bias toward trust in good faithā¦ and the due diligence to verify. Iāve only just started. If you have any links about Kadena I should follow, I am very happy and receptive to seeing them, whatever they contain (SFW!)
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My understanding so far is that Kadena has not particularly sought to inflate its currency or get big VC money fast. There was a brief speculative bubble that raised then dropped its price back to the baseline. As ever, the professional speculators made lots and the FOMO retail investors lost money.
But as far as I have been able to gather, there are zero indications the bubble started from within, that the Kadena team profited in any way, or that the bull run changed whatever they were doing before and continued to do through the bull run and beyond. They seem to have a much longer term, systemic focus. They appear notably not to have created the huge first mover concentrations of power in almost every other chain, and they donāt have the Crypto VC pressures to inflate and sell. They seem much more ambitious, and much more grounded.
This is, in pretty much every respect, the opposite of ICP Genesis. The speculation was internally driven, the trades were made by insiders, they were made when all investors were locked, and the shifts in valuation map to announcements that Dom himself made. Among the definite beneficiaries were VCs and Dfinity employees with custom contracts and agreements that excluded them from the lock.
Speculative runs happen. Crypto is a gambling casino with a gigantic house advantage. The problem is when the speculative runs are orchestrated by the house, demonstrate trading based on insider knowledge and privileged rights, and are followed by a crash that links to self-enriching trades and statements from a tiny number of first mover oligopolists.
Super happy for any factual data that challenges any of this reading of Kadena. That is what I myself am looking for. But so far, so good. I have concerns on the environmental front, but their innovations on POW are a potential game changer for electricity consumption, and scalability (their USP), so am having a close look before drawing any conclusions.
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Is it normal that a former Dfinity employee left the organisation to join Kadena? Iām not that familiar with employee movements in crypto, so not sure what to make of it. I had the same confusion when Andreas Rossberg left Dfinity.
Obviously I have no visibility, but what is usual is that a contract will have time specific non-compete/non-poaching clause. I.e., you canāt work for a competitor for x time after leaving, or recruit from our company or business. Once that time has expired, or if the new job is considered to fall outside, or if agreed between all concerned, the move is fine. Iām certain on of these three scenarios would have obtained.
I know several former DFINITY employees who now work at other blockchain efforts. I spent almost 4 years at DFINITY, still love the technology, but I like the blockchain concept overall even more and so I wanted to diversify my personal investment of time and energy in the space. There is great social benefit here, once we evolve beyond the speculators and Ponzi schemes ā much in the same way that the Internet evolved beyond being a distribution network for ācertain types of mediaā.
Kadena is sufficiently different in its approach, and I liked the people working there, that I felt it would be a complimentary addition to my life-investment in blockchain thus far.
Now that I understand both technology stacks fairly well, I can say that rather than competing, they could compliment each other extremely well. If DFINITYās threshold crypto were extended to support ed25519, they could create a native bridge to Kadena the same way that they have with Bitcoin. This would open the door to a hybrid world where DFINITY (whose main strengths are universal compute via WebAssembly, high transaction speeds due to smaller replication factors, vetted node providers at some cost to decentralization) could settle financial and governance transactions through Kadena (who main strengths are stronger consensus (1/2 for Kadena vs. 2/3 for Dfinity), the simplicity of the Bitcoin model, incentivized decentralization due to PoW, scalability via multi-chain ā not unlike how Dfinity has multiple subnets ā and a solid contract language that is not meant for universal compute the way Wasm is).
Weāre already getting used to JavaScript on the front-end, Rust on the back-endā¦ The analogy is admittedly a poor one, but itās this sort of hybridization that Iāve always hoped would become part of the future for blockchain. No one technology is ever going to be the best at all things.
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What is the advantage of Kadena over ETH PoW? I guess ETH PoW canāt scale at L1 level, or even L2 really.
You mean, before ETH switched to PoS so that it could scale?
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Iām not here to speak about Kadena, though, this is a DFINITY forum ā I was just answering a question personally directed at me. If you want to ask questions about Kadena itself on Reddit or our discord, Iād be happy to go into further detail over there.
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hello. this is very concerning information. this would mean that dominic or someone else outright lied and deceived to profit when others could not. i cannot get the pdf to load, do you have another link?
If I was interested in running a node with the gen 2 hardware that was published on the wiki and I had the means and ways to do so how would I go about contacting dfinity about this. It seems that unlike other chains there are what, 7 approved centers to operate? There should be a streamlined process to allow entities that can provide and operate the hardware to register and being at will.
That is the screen you get while it is downloading the pdf. Check your downloads folder for the doc, itās likely there, or try again, wait a bit then check. I just tried and it worked fine.
Hi @Internationalwaters, you can register any datacenter (DC) that fits the technical requirements, see the procedure here: VIII. Ensure that your datacenter is registered in the network. Any DC already housing IC nodes is very unlikely to run more nodes from another node provider anytime soon.
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May I dm you? I am in the process of negotiating w some centers and would like to not be redundant.
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Of course - also on twitter @roald_pa