Dfinity did DD on EMC, and you should trust it. Also, many project parties in the IC community are familiar with the EMC team. Don’t worry about it, leave me alone, I still have a lot of work to finish, it’s 4:00am CST and we are still working overtime. No effort to deal with you.
Is there a way we can structure these conversations to where it can be more of a Q+A or constructive criticism? Ive seen a few of these threads where it falls apart into attacking each other.
It seems like if there are any non recognized organizations, people get suspicious, for good reason. Maybe dfinity can give an endorsement right away to show that it isn’t a ‘scam’
Also it seems like one bug concern is the use of the community fund is a hot topic and who should ‘qualify’ for it. Might make sense to have some consensus on norms for the request of those funds.
How about we try a reset of this thread and go back to asking a couple of simple but salient questions of the EMC team.
From the very first paragraph of this thread:
Q1: when is"soon"? Next week? Next month? In 2-3 before the EMC Mainnet launches? After mainnet launch?
I think the assumption amongst many posting above is that EMC is rushing to an SNS vote with the expected preparation and milestones. But maybe this thread was intended by the EMC team to introduce the project directly to the core ICP community to prepare the ground for a future SNS proposal submission.
So WHEN seems like an important question.
How does the ICP community want the EMC team to prove its good standing and fidelity in advance of submitting an SNS proposal?
@MillionMiles in this post above gives a clear and reasonable set of steps to progress this. Others have offered valuable advice above. Dfinity recently released an SNS preparation roadmap. Is the EMC team aware of and these steps and do they understand them? Are any of these conditions too onerous or not applicable? Taking this through a shared process would help I think.
A lot of the distance separating many Community contributors from teams planning and proposing SNS launches seems to come down to this question. Why do they want to do a full SNS launched via NNS vote.
Some question the need, some question the competence and some question the good motives of SNS launch teams because they are asking for community fund contributions. Some of these challenges put to EMC and previous SNS launch teams are fair and proportionate. Some are overly aggressive and include ad hominem attacks accusing serious projects of being a scam, without evidence to justify those accusations AFAICT.
Frankly it is laughable that any true scammers doing research on using an SNS launch to rugpull would think ICP was an easy target after reading the robust and engaged discussions in this community forums. If they got one past you lot I would eat my hat!
But try to look at this from the outside. Dfinity marketing and promotional efforts emphasise the SNS DAO as a key difference to other blockchains and a reason for existing developer teams and other projects to move ICP. So is it really any suprise that projects arrive here expecting this to be something achievable and even expected of them?
So yes we should challenge and explain and educate newly arrived teams about why an SNS launch may not be the best way for them to proceed, and how to proceed to get the community on board with their plans to launch. Help them find the right path into the ICP ecosystem for their project. But respect the work and commitment they have likely put in before they can here, and their likely good intentions.
But for the sake of this World Computer project can we please show newcomers some patience and understanding instead of treating them as outsiders undeserving of our respect.
And if you need a mental reset to achieve this, just remember that for the majority of you reading this, neither you nor I built this magnificent beast of a World Computer. But you know who did? Yes you do, and they are respecting your membership of this community by not throwing their weight around, although I guess some of them are sorely tempted when reading some of the posts in this forum.
Thank you @Gekctek for saying in far fewer words much of what I was trying to say just now. I couldn’t agree more and I am guessing that is also true for many other readers who somehow made it so far down this thread.
And after rereading my last post I realise now I slipped into grumpy Dad mode near the end, so my apologies to everyone for that.
Welcome to the IC! Good to have new projects.
Imo IC is the best L1 you can pick for your L2 network. Congratz on your choice.
Could you tell us how far you are with the Checklist https://forum.dfinity.org/t/sns-launch-checklist/19855
I would also like to learn more about your integration with the IC.
That tiny arrow isn’t very informative.
I would prefer to see a sequence diagram with canisters & the L2. Otherwise, there is not much to review here.
Your AI tech may be amazing, but you also need to explain how the DAO is going to benefit from it.
Are you transferring all software rights to the DAO?
Can your network decide to disconnect from the IC after spending all funds?
How are you going to cryptographically or legally guarantee that the DAO is going to benefit from that tech? I think you need to bind the whole thing in such a way that you or anyone else can’t break that bond. Then having a DAO makes sense. That’s why that tiny arrow is not enough for me.
Good luck! I hope you will figure it out
It seems these conversations are turning far more productive and diplomatic. I’m all for due diligence and intellectually honest conversation, but we can be civilized in the process and we can agree to disagree without making it personal. It’s awesome to see so many newer names joining the conversation and making meaningful contributions in an objective way.
Thank you for your valuable input. regarding the infrastructure at this level. Inspecting all the technical details of a project can be nearly impossible. While some people tend to favor projects backed by well-known venture capitalists or those that have undergone million-dollar audits, it does not guarantee reliability either, as exemplified by instances like LayerZero and Swaprum. Personally, I prefer engaging in direct conversations with project teams to assess their trustworthiness.
First and foremost, I would like to acknowledge EMC’s vision, which perfectly aligns with my own vision for true AI+web3 integration. Moreover, I find Zed to be a bold and intelligent entrepreneur, and I have confidence in his ability to build this project. I must admit that I am not well-informed about the recent dilemma within the SNS space, nor do I rely on forecasts to determine a project’s success or failure, considering that almost 50% of elite startups from YC, fail. What I see in EMC is a determined team composed of the right individuals.
However, given the established rules within the ecosystem by Dfinity, the EMC team will undoubtedly need to convince and gain the respect of the majority of the IC gangsters to successfully launch the SNS. I have the best wishes for them and eagerly anticipate further developments.
Thank you @infu and @MCLYang your contributions were great to see this morning (for me) and I hope @zed.emc @alxgoh and @ninadou can reciprocate with some specific answers to your focussed questions. There were many other good questions worth finding in the long thread above that could be answered specifically by your team regarding platform tech and DAO governance that would be well worth replying to.
Let’s keep this on track to educate the ICP community about your team and work and build trust and confidence on both sides of a healthy debate.
Despite of EMC team efforts, it looks like the ICP community is still holding back their trust because they haven’t been able to fully verify EMC project. It’s a tough spot to be in, but it’s not a dead end.
Quick question for Dfinity & Dom who has met the EMC team personally & due dilligent of the project. How high is your confidence level to the EMC project ? Does Dfinity have the same confidence level as they are as a seed funder for OpenChat project ? Because simple statement from @zire Herbert Yang “EMC is not a scam”, “We have met personally with the team” are still not convincing enough.
Alternatively, EMC could consider not rushing to SNS launch, and instead focus on running the project for some time to earn trust from the ICP community. Building a track record of successful operations and delivering on their promises will help establish credibility and gain the community’s confidence
After spending some time reading through various posts, I have come to understand the points of contention. Firstly, there are doubts about the authenticity and implementation of the EMC project, as well as concerns that progress has been made too quickly, which seems to be inconsistent with common sense. Secondly, there are questions about whether there are real, substantial demands for AI developers and applications, or whether there is a lack of such demand. Of course, there are also other technical viewpoints that have been discussed.
“Let me say this: voting is a small step, but a big step for the development of AI. We all understand this truth, and we understand it even more deeply in our hearts. Whether it’s AI or EMC, they are just the beginning. The arrival of a new era cannot be stopped, and it is up to individuals to choose their own path. I believe that EMC will find the best path for itself. It’s like describing the taste and texture of ice cream to someone who has never tasted it before - it’s hard to put into words. Some people may find it delicious, while others may find it disgusting. The only way to truly know is to try it for yourself. Perhaps you are better at describing it than anyone else. In Eastern culture, going with the flow and hard work are the answers to why EMC is here and why it has gained momentum.”
Before I sign off for a while, let me share a moment of good humour with everyone in amongst this serious discussion.
I got the chuckles when I read part of your post @MCLYang which you might forgive me for quoting here:
This is a beautiful semantic near-miss!
Or is it? Any chance of an new 8yeargangDAO NFT mint for budding “IC gangsters” @MillionMiles ??
We will gradually disclose relevant codes, contract audits, AI application data, and more based on the pace of the EMC project, feedback from the IC community, and the requirements of SNS.
We have been an open-source project from the very beginning, but due to certain competition or policy reasons, we need to protect some outstanding developers and builders.
Through extensive communication with the ICP community at friendly meetups in Hong Kong and the DFINITY Foundation, the development of the Asia-Pacific region and the AI field by ICP are one of the crucial reason for our choice of ICP. The EMC team took the risk of rejecting invitations from other public chains and specifically chose ICP.
Since we have chosen ICP to grow together among public chains, we will not let unfounded remarks affect our progress. At this moment, it is important to respect and believe in those who support us and let the codes influence those who doubt.
Not only EMC, but ICP, ETH, BTC, and even Tesla have all experienced moments of being misunderstood. That is not important. What matters is that we know who we are, where we want to go, and what changes we want to bring to the entire Web3 ecosystem.
haha, bro, you deserved an 8YearGangDAO NFT #SoulWarrior
Nice meeting you here! It was a pleasure to talk over Zoom and share some of our ideas with each othe.
I am glad to see your rational and international comments on the forum. It is true that the EMC team may not align with the Western and IC community’s style in terms of information disclosure, but we are more than willing to engage in discussions with valuable voices and show more codes, data and thoughts.
In the current fast-paced development of AI, the EMC team engages in regular discussions with multiple teams that aspire to enter the AI field. I believe that discussing SNS, EMC, and ICP alone is too narrow of a focus. We should concentrate on how to enable more AI startups to leverage Web3 and computing power to create better products, promote better markets, and win over their own communities/DAOs in a friendly manner.
Currently, the hourly pricing for a 4xA100 system is around $16 for AWS, $13 for Azure(adjusted from monthly rate) and $10 for GCP, and as a result, an OpenAI research piece this January found that the cost of training a large AI model can already range from $3m to $12m, with prices growing at an exponential rate of 0.49 OOM per year, while even smaller models can cost upwards of $80k (Trends in the dollar training cost of machine learning systems). At this rate of growth, we project that the less dominant corporations in this ~$120B market(CAGR ~37%) will soon find it financially prohibitive to continue training AI models in this manner, which in turn represents a sizeable block of EMC’s potential userbase (Artificial Intelligence Market Size & Share Analysis Report 2030, Artificial Intelligence (AI) Market Size, Growth, Report 2022-2030).
What’s more is inference costs: as a practical case study deployed on EMC for computation requirements, an AI image generation product (showed the early post, Lingchuang) we’re currently collaborating with has around 5000-6000 DAU at the moment, with 50000+ images being generated daily. They’re currently looking at 30 V100 or 50 3090 GPU’s worth of computing resources as they plan for 100k+ new users in the following months.
On AWS, each regular illustration call costs them about .7 cents to run, amounting to approx. $70000 in inference costs only, bound to scale exponentially with userbase growth.
So, it’s a reason why we need SNS to obtain ICP and EMC liquidity, thus enable these AI developers to enter at a low cost while providing tangible benefits to idle miners. This will undoubtedly promote the prosperity of the entire ICP ecosystem and contribute to the rise in the price of ICP tokens. After joining the ICP ecosystem, my friends and I have also started purchasing ICP, so we consider ourselves part of the community as well.
I’ve been thinking about getting me one of those! My paltry 10 ICP staked for 8 feels too small to qualify myself for one, but then maybe I should take my own advice and be brave enough to commit more.
Off to find me a #SoulWarrior mate.
Although I am just a small individual investor in ICP, I have dedicated almost all of my savings and income to the crypto industry and investments. I have also experienced many idealistic but failed projects and beautifully packaged but fraudulent projects.
However, I still believe in data ownership and production relationships and how crucial they are for the upcoming AI era.
Despite all the frustrations and disappointments I have faced, I still hold onto hope. Web3 enables humanity to have ownership of their data assets in the AI intelligent world, providing a new direction and path for building new production relationships in the intelligent world.
Please don’t lose hope. Web3, the crypto industry, and steadfast believers and practitioners like us are still here. And now that we have come together in the IC community, let us strive once again for the betterment of the entire Web3 through the breakthrough of AI.
The reason that EMC attracted me is because of what Alex described as “the scavenger of GPU power”. As my other world is in pure AI (mostly inferencing) , i am actutely aware about the costs associated with it. (I run most of the workflows on runpod).
I think EMC nicely fits with ICP; but I think that implications of AI are going to be much more profound.
In any event, i think it would be very useful to have a functioning website which describes the EMC and how to take it for a spin. I am beginning to create some of the content for this;but i have much to learn about EMC.
We have IC People, Squad, Army , Renegades so yeah Gangster sure seems like a fresh approach
Thanks to your openness towards new projects.
After comparing several major public chains, we found that ICP is extremely suitable for the EMC project and the AI track in terms of technology, security, and user experience (reverse gas). Therefore, we quickly reached a consensus with the DFINITY Foundation and have been in close communication regarding the compatibility between EMC Layer2 and ICP Layer1.
After the intense discussion during this SNS, the EMC team has gained more assistance from IC developers, accelerating the integration of the two layers and speeding up the development of Openverse. We are implementing SDKs in multiple languages such as Java, Rust, Python, Go, etc., to enable fast onboarding of more AI developers, including many developers from internet giants like Alibaba. These codes will undergo thorough reviews and audits before the launch of SNS.
You can find more technical articles and weekly technical updates about EMC on Mora. Mora - Eternal Fellowship
Additionally, if you’re interested, you’re welcome to join the EMC Discord’s developer group. Discord Since most EMC developers are from Singapore and China, we are more accustomed to collaborating on platforms like WeChat and Feishu. Therefore, your assistance and participation in the global Discord community are greatly appreciated.