# Seed neuron spawn failures - multiple neurons stuck in Spawning state

**URL:** <https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716>\
**Category:** Developers\
**Tags:** neuron\
**Created:** [November 9, 2025, 8:54am UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716 "2025-11-09T08:54:36Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 16\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![idontexist](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/idontexist/32/3744_2.png) [@idontexist](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/idontexist)\
**Post date:** [November 9, 2025, 8:54am UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/1 "2025-11-09T08:54:36Z")

</div>

I have some seed neurons. I am trying to spawn the rewards into a separate neuron to access my ICP, but into issues.

First neuron:

Parent neuron IDs: 281525030204895507

Spawned neuron IDs: 358429794222158868

The transaction is successful, but I seems like the spawned neuron is in a corrupted state. I even tried to increase dissolve delay to 1 day, but can’t start dissolving.

Tried with a second seed neuron and the exact same issue.

Parent neuron: 685705572931231473

Spawned neuron: 9973304611228297795

It seems like a bug in the seed neurons. Can someone help? @SupportDev

Original error message on console that I saw: NNS error: There isn’t enough maturity to spawn a new neuron due to worst case maturity modulation.

More info: (on the second neuron that I tried):

$ dfx canister --network ic call rrkah-fqaaa-aaaaa-aaaaq-cai get\_full\_neuron ‘(9973304611228297795:nat64)’

(

variant {

```auto
Ok = record {

  id = opt record { id = 9_973_304_611_228_297_795 : nat64 };

  staked_maturity_e8s_equivalent = null;

  controller = opt principal "w6sf3-igbyf-gokg5-mp3hm-r3rxj-ysfkz-hogs6-i64hk-wtszh-yrgse-lae";

  recent_ballots = vec {};

  voting_power_refreshed_timestamp_seconds = opt (1_762_677_301 : nat64);

  kyc_verified = true;

  potential_voting_power = opt (0 : nat64);

  neuron_type = null;

  not_for_profit = false;

  maturity_e8s_equivalent = 33_454_665_363 : nat64;

  deciding_voting_power = opt (0 : nat64);

  cached_neuron_stake_e8s = 0 : nat64;

  created_timestamp_seconds = 1_762_677_301 : nat64;

  auto_stake_maturity = null;

  aging_since_timestamp_seconds = 18_446_744_073_709_551_615 : nat64;

  hot_keys = vec {};

  account = blob "\\c7\\9d\\e7\\c3\\ce\\fc\\56\\fe\\aa\\44\\d7\\dc\\82\\a9\\c9\\3c\\03\\d6\\cb\\e4\\c9\\6b\\19\\0c\\34\\b8\\aa\\9e\\56\\67\\88\\09";

  joined_community_fund_timestamp_seconds = null;

  maturity_disbursements_in_progress = opt vec {};

  dissolve_state = opt variant {

    WhenDissolvedTimestampSeconds = 1_763_282_101 : nat64

  };

  followees = vec {};

  neuron_fees_e8s = 0 : nat64;

  visibility = opt (1 : int32);

  transfer = null;

  known_neuron_data = null;

  spawn_at_timestamp_seconds = opt (1_763_282_101 : nat64);

}

```

},

)

So seems like `maturity_e8s_equivalent `is not 0 for some reason, and expecting `cached_neuron_stake_e8s`to be around 300 ICP.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Lorimer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/lorimer/32/17601_2.png) [@Lorimer](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/Lorimer)\
**Post date:** [November 9, 2025, 8:53pm UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/2 "2025-11-09T20:53:01Z")

</div>

> [@idontexist](#):
>
> I am trying to spawn the rewards into a separate neuron

Rewards are no longer spawned into neurons. The maturity is disbursed directly to an ICP wallet address rather than into a neuron. This behaviour was altered several months back, so may explain the issues you’re having.

> [@On another topic](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/43228/1):
>
> Deprecation of Spawning

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![idontexist](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/idontexist/32/3744_2.png) [@idontexist](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/idontexist)\
**Post date:** [November 10, 2025, 3:33am UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/3 "2025-11-10T03:33:33Z")

</div>

Oh damn. I am using quill and dfx on the CLI and neither tool stopped me from spawning a new neuron. It even spawned the neuron with a new id.

I am running this via a .pem file. Any idea how I could access my ICP -

- Access ICP from the 2 neurons that I already spawned for rewards.
- Access ICP rewards from the other neurons that have been staking for around 4 years.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Lorimer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/lorimer/32/17601_2.png) [@Lorimer](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/Lorimer)\
**Post date:** [November 10, 2025, 6:30am UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/4 "2025-11-10T06:30:34Z")

</div>

It doesn’t look like your spawned neuron has any ICP in it. I suspect the spawn suceeded at the neuron creation stage, but failed to move any maturity into it (just a guess as I’ve not looked at the code).

You should check if any of your maturity has actually moved (it probably hasn’t). @jasonzhu should know more.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![idontexist](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/idontexist/32/3744_2.png) [@idontexist](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/idontexist)\
**Post date:** [November 10, 2025, 8:00am UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/5 "2025-11-10T08:00:10Z")

</div>

Thanks @Lorimer but it seems like maturity was transferred / destroyed somehow?

For the 2 neurons (281525030204895507, 685705572931231473), when I try to disburse maturity, I get the error:  
NNS error: Disbursement (0) is too small. After the worst case maturity modulation (-500) the amount should be at least: 100000000 e8s

@jasonzhu can you please help?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![idontexist](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/idontexist/32/3744_2.png) [@idontexist](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/idontexist)\
**Post date:** [November 10, 2025, 8:06am UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/6 "2025-11-10T08:06:32Z")

</div>

@Lorimer @jasonzhu I ran the disburse maturity for a third neuron - 721574941063530135.

```auto
quill neuron-manage 721574941063530135 --disburse-maturity --disburse-maturity-to d8ed3d2a3d4b302681ad992afc74ef757e98047b446bc9d87f23f1d85c585ce1 --pem-file ~/.config/dfx/identity/lockandkey/identity.pem > ./disburse-maturity-721574941063530135.json

quill send ./disburse-maturity-721574941063530135.json

```

and I got a success message

```auto
Successfully disbursed 275.87680771 maturity

```

However, this isn’t showing up in my account d8ed3d2a3d4b302681ad992afc74ef757e98047b446bc9d87f23f1d85c585ce1

Is there a waiting time or something else going on with the seed neurons?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![jasonzhu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/jasonzhu/32/12251_2.png) [@jasonzhu](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/jasonzhu)\
**Post date:** [November 10, 2025, 4:36pm UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/7 "2025-11-10T16:36:33Z")

</div>

Hi @idontexist, thanks for posting the steps you went through, those are really helpful to show what happened. From those it seems things worked as expected.

TLDR as you probably care most about the maturity in your neurons: there is a 7-day waiting period for both spawned neurons and disbursed maturity. After the 7-day waiting period, spawned neurons should exit the “spawning” state (and available as a dissolved neuron), while the disbursed maturity will arrive at the specified address

## State of Spawning

> [@Lorimer](#):
>
> Rewards are no longer spawned into neurons. The maturity is disbursed directly to an ICP wallet address rather than into a neuron. This behaviour was altered several months back, so may explain the issues you’re having.

While this is true for neurons controlled by NNS Dapp, it’s not true in general, and more specifically, not true for neurons controlled in other ways. The “spawning” is deprecated, but not removed from the NNS Governance (and thus it should still work correctly). In the NNS Dapp we present the easier way of accessing the maturity, but in other surfaces it’s more challenging to completely remove the spawning without breaking things, and the work to stop supporting spawning hasn’t happened yet.

## Documentation

Please check [this page](https://learn.internetcomputer.org/hc/en-us/articles/34084120668692-Neurons) (the section “Spawning maturity via the maturity modulation function”) for spawning and [this page](https://learn.internetcomputer.org/hc/en-us/articles/39755298701204-How-can-I-disburse-maturity) for disbursing maturity.

## How to confirm things working as expected

For spawned neurons, the `spawn_at_timestamp_seconds` is the time when the neuron exit the “spawning” state. The timestamp shown for `9973304611228297795` seems to be the coming Sunday. At that time, you should see (1) `cached_neuron_stake_e8s` become ~33ICP (subject to maturity modulation of ±5%), and (2) `spawn_at_timestamp_seconds` becomes `null`. At that time you should be able to do `quill neuron-manage --disburse ...`

For disbursed maturity, you should be able to call

```auto
$ dfx canister --network ic call rrkah-fqaaa-aaaaa-aaaaq-cai get_full_neuron ‘(721574941063530135:nat64)’

```

and see a `maturity_disbursements_in_progress` field, and the `finalize_disbursement_timestamp_seconds` inside it should indicate when you should see the the minted ICP.

Hope this helps!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![idontexist](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/idontexist/32/3744_2.png) [@idontexist](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/idontexist)\
**Post date:** [November 10, 2025, 6:16pm UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/8 "2025-11-10T18:16:21Z")

</div>

Oh wow thanks so much for the detailed explanation! I think I am all set then - totally missed the 7 day waiting period part. I’ll update after a week how things look then. Really appreciate your help, thanks once again!

A couple of questions if you don’t mind answering -

- I have a few other seed neurons - is there a recommended way to access their staking rewards i.e. via reward spawning new neurons or direct disbursement to account? Does it matter?
- I also noticed that my seed neurons aren’t participating in governance, which is very unfortunate. I thought these were automatically voting for ‘Dfinity’ back in Nov ‘21. I just wanted to ask and clarify - is it ok to get them voting now, even if some are awaiting the reward disbursement? And if so, what’s the best way to delegate votes to the Dfinity org or the recommended entity?
- The seed neurons came with a whole dissolve delay schedule. I want to put them all to 4 years. Is it safe to just do this with the existing seed neurons without dissolving them? Any gotchas at all that I should be aware of?

Thanks again for your help!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![jasonzhu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/jasonzhu/32/12251_2.png) [@jasonzhu](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/jasonzhu)\
**Post date:** [November 13, 2025, 6:31pm UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/9 "2025-11-13T18:31:46Z")

</div>

> [@idontexist](#):
>
> I have a few other seed neurons - is there a recommended way to access their staking rewards i.e. via reward spawning new neurons or direct disbursement to account? Does it matter?

I’d say that disbursing maturity is easier. However, we got report that Kraken has some problem handling such transactions and we are actively working with them to resolve this. In the mean time, I’d suggest disbursing to an address owned by your own principal.

> [@idontexist](#):
>
> I also noticed that my seed neurons aren’t participating in governance, which is very unfortunate. I thought these were automatically voting for ‘Dfinity’ back in Nov ‘21. I just wanted to ask and clarify - is it ok to get them voting now, even if some are awaiting the reward disbursement? And if so, what’s the best way to delegate votes to the Dfinity org or the recommended entity?

You are probably affected by the periodic confirmation feature. This [post](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/periodic-confirmation-of-following-is-released/40163) has more information as well as the “Periodic Confirmation” section on [this page](https://learn.internetcomputer.org/hc/en-us/articles/34084120668692-Neurons).

> [@idontexist](#):
>
> The seed neurons came with a whole dissolve delay schedule. I want to put them all to 4 years. Is it safe to just do this with the existing seed neurons without dissolving them? Any gotchas at all that I should be aware of?

I don’t see a problem of increasing the dissolve delay to 4 years. You are probably aware of the fact that if the state is not-dissolving, then the dissolve delay will remain 4 years instead of decreasing. Another thing is that the age bonus is lost once you start dissolving.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![idontexist](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/idontexist/32/3744_2.png) [@idontexist](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/idontexist)\
**Post date:** [November 24, 2025, 7:42pm UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/10 "2025-11-24T19:42:34Z")

</div>

Hey @jasonzhu thanks for your responses above. I tried voting via quill per the post that you referenced in your earlier reply. The response I got seems different from what I should expect per that post. Is there a way to confirm this worked? I ran this for my first neuron (referenced in my original post) - 281525030204895507. Ideally, can I see this works now on a web UI somewhere to independently confirm?

```auto
$ quill neuron-manage 281525030204895507 --refresh-followers
[{"ingress":{"call_type":"update","request_id":"0c0bb0b62370e4a725335c822b1a71b68667b3b8e9a97f1cdcd18aa925af4a3a","content":"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","role":"nns:governance"},"request_status":{"canister_id":"rrkah-fqaaa-aaaaa-aaaaq-cai","request_id":"0c0bb0b62370e4a725335c822b1a71b68667b3b8e9a97f1cdcd18aa925af4a3a","content":"d9d9f7a167636f6e74656e74a46c726571756573745f747970656a726561645f73746174656e696e67726573735f6578706972791b187b08d2adefa8006673656e646572410465706174687381824e726571756573745f73746174757358200c0bb0b62370e4a725335c822b1a71b68667b3b8e9a97f1cdcd18aa925af4a3a"}}]

```

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![jasonzhu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/jasonzhu/32/12251_2.png) [@jasonzhu](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/jasonzhu)\
**Post date:** [November 24, 2025, 10:52pm UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/11 "2025-11-24T22:52:49Z")

</div>

> [@idontexist](#):
>
> The response I got seems different from what I should expect per that post.

I believe the process should be similar to what you did to disburse maturity: `quill neuron-manage 281525030204895507 --refresh-followers ... > ./refresh-followers.json` and then `quill send` (I would do `--dry-run` before sending).

> [@idontexist](#):
>
> Ideally, can I see this works now on a web UI somewhere to independently confirm?

There are a few ways:

- Use ICP dashboard: [https://dashboard.internetcomputer.org/neuron/281525030204895507](https://dashboard.internetcomputer.org/neuron/281525030204895507) (if it worked, it should say “active neuron” instead of “inactive neuron”
- Similarly, from VPGeek: [vpGeek - Internet Computer Voting Power Dashboard](https://f2djv-5aaaa-aaaah-qdbea-cai.raw.icp0.io/neuron/281525030204895507)
- There is also a way to use the [NNS Dapp](https://nns.ic0.app)

for neurons not controlled by an NNS Dapp principal, and you would be able to see information only readable by the neuron owner, without making the neuron public. Not sure what device you use so it’s hard to provide the exact instructions. Perhaps [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKbYUmqF7J4) would be helpful if you use a Ledger device, but on a high level, you just need to add your NNS Dapp principal as a hotkey of the neuron (`quill neuron-manage ${NEURON_ID} --add-hot-key ${YOUR_NNS_DAPP_PRINCIPAL} ... > add-hot-key.json` and then `quill send`. You would need to have some level of trust on the NNS Dapp, of course.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![idontexist](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/idontexist/32/3744_2.png) [@idontexist](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/idontexist)\
**Post date:** [November 25, 2025, 6:40am UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/12 "2025-11-25T06:40:53Z")

</div>

> [@jasonzhu](#):
>
> I believe the process should be similar to what you did to disburse maturity: `quill neuron-manage 281525030204895507 --refresh-followers ... > ./refresh-followers.json` and then `quill send` (I would do `--dry-run` before sending).

Thanks @jasonzhu ! I tried this but got an error:

```auto
$ quill send refresh-followers-281525030204895507.json --dry-run
Sending message with

  Call type: update
  Sender: 2vxsx-fae
  Canister id: rrkah-fqaaa-aaaaa-aaaaq-cai
  Method name: manage_neuron
  Arguments: (
  record {
    id = null;
    command = opt variant { RefreshVotingPower = record {} };
    neuron_id_or_subaccount = opt variant {
      NeuronId = record { id = 281_525_030_204_895_507 : nat64 }
    };
  },
)

```

but when I try to send, I get this error:

> NNS error: The caller (2vxsx-fae) is not authorized to refresh the voting power of neuron 281525030204895507.

Tried adding my pem file location via `--pem-file` flag but get the same output. Could you help - seems like I am missing something here.

FWIW, I am not using a ledger device for this.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![jasonzhu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/jasonzhu/32/12251_2.png) [@jasonzhu](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/jasonzhu)\
**Post date:** [December 1, 2025, 6:54pm UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/13 "2025-12-01T18:54:09Z")

</div>

> [@idontexist](#):
>
> `Sender: 2vxsx-fae`

This is the problem - `2vxsx-fae` is the anonymous principal, so essentially the `quill neuron-manage` produced a message signed by the anonymous principal (hence, not authorized). After looking at the quill implementation, I’m not seeing how the command would succeed with the anonymous principal if `--pem-file` is provided (as opposed to, fail if `--pem-file` is somehow invalid). Would it be possible that you created a `refresh-followers-281525030204895507.json` without `--pem-file` first, and then later used that previous file for sending?

Otherwise, it might be helpful to provide the exact version of `quill` so we can take a closer look. I also used `quill` to refresh my own neuron and it worked (I’m using 0.5.3).

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![idontexist](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/idontexist/32/3744_2.png) [@idontexist](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/idontexist)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 7:36pm UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/14 "2025-12-02T19:36:43Z")

</div>

Ah, you’re absolutely right. Giving the –pem-file first worked - my bad here.

I’ll do this for all of my neurons. Just to confirm - I should be doing this once every 6 months right? So e.g. if I write a quick script to do this, I need to run this once every 6 months basically?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![jasonzhu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/jasonzhu/32/12251_2.png) [@jasonzhu](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/jasonzhu)\
**Post date:** [December 2, 2025, 9:08pm UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/15 "2025-12-02T21:08:57Z")

</div>

Yes, that sounds right

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![idontexist](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex023/user_avatar/forum.dfinity.org/idontexist/32/3744_2.png) [@idontexist](https://forum.dfinity.org/u/idontexist)\
**Post date:** [December 3, 2025, 1:51pm UTC](https://forum.dfinity.org/t/seed-neuron-spawn-failures-multiple-neurons-stuck-in-spawning-state/59716/16 "2025-12-03T13:51:46Z")

</div>

Thanks @jasonzhu really appreciate your help through some of these issues!