If you allow more freedom then more people will join. I just found out you could stake ICP for 120 days on binance for 8%
Sorry for the drive-by comments, but there is a lot above and lots going on, so I’ll leave them and check back later:
Proposal 1:
- I’d rather focus on increasing demand than managing supply.
- How much ICP is minted for node providers in relation to the amount of maturity generated by voting? I suspect that node providers are contributing significantly more to inflation, but I’m happy to be shown I’m wrong.
- I have a black-hole code that sends ICP to an 8-year neuron(each time I do this the official age drops a bit and then catches back up). If I can’t top up my 8y neuron anymore, what i going to happen to this ICP?
Proposal 2:
- It seems like this directly counterbalances the ideas in 1. Liquidity turns into supply on a dime in the right environment.
- Can this be positioned as a loan somehow? You don’t have to pay taxes on a loan generally. You could ‘borrow’ up to X * (1-max spawn penalty) such that you’ll always have at least enough in your neuron to cover your loan.
- Isn’t this a kind of CDP voting attack that time-locked neurons were supposed to specifically target? I can borrow an infinite number of ICP at any rate under the reward rate, stake it, and accumulate votes at a higher rate than I have to pay interest in ICP. Having to pay taxes on proceeds and the potential for a market downturn during spawn currently keeps this attack at bay. If you remove those, you open the attack back up I think. (It may be hard to get the kind of loan that decays at the same rate of rewards, but I’d guess that someone would be willing to take on the risk.)
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Thank you @bjoernek for the quick answer.
Yep, I had the feeling this is the correct answer as I have studied the tokenomics some time ago from the same source. So this confirms my assumptions that in several years ICP will have a very low inflation if development on the protocol will continue and cycles will be burned.
Long time ago I wanted to write a post on X that ICP tokenomics is genius because of of it’s inflationary and deflationary mechanism and because of the direct utility of the ICP coin. A agree with folks who say NNS tokenomics should stay unchanged and provide security and stability for long term investors.
At the same time this topic probably is very important for investors and people who want to fud ICP as this will provide clarity upon the future inflation of ICP.
WHY ICP HAS GENIUS TOKENOMICS:
Overall inflation is capped and is decreasing to 5%.
The deflation from consumed Cycles will hopefully burn 2-3% by 2030.
Still in 4-5 years will be newly spawned 8 year neurons that will accumulate maturity and the actual inflation will be lower than 5%, possibly only about 3%
This means in 5 years ICP could turn deflationary
Too high deflation on ICP is not good, as the protocol need to burn ICP in order to compute.
Developers that don’t stake now ICP in order to run their projects from maturity will have to buy ICP at any price, but the cost of Cycles will always be the same, so their costs will be the same.
If ICP will have low inflation and 75-85% of total Circ. Supply staked, then in 5-10 years the new developers will create a tremendous buying pressure on ICP.
If the protocol will keep developing and will be a top choice for developers then even in 10 years some developers will choose to buy and stake ICP in order to run their dapps.
Imagine price of ICP going down a lot in 10 years while there is a lot of activity on the network and developers need to buy more ICP for Cycles (because of the low price) and suddenly there are no more free ICP, at that point the price will skyrocket and developers will buy at any price.
This is for my 8yearsgang fellows, stay strong, restake you maturity and acumulate voting power. One day the maturity received from voting will be very precious!
Now there is no pressure of selling from 8 year neurons, yes we will sell some of our maturity and this is not a drama, as is the case for other protocols that have liquid staking or stake only for a few weeks you can plan selling everything.
@dominicwilliams ICP has a genius tokenomics, don’t F.ck it up pls.!
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Moderator Note:
@8yearNeuron @Mpeiz community flagged your comments. I manually reviewed them and accepted the flag because they are not the right tone for this forum. “screw over” and “dfinity sounds like a drug addict” are not the tone that will best foster honest discussions.
Many folks are able to share concerns and disagree/agree in this forum with more thoughtful language, so I ask you do the same. Thank you.
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Listen if you want a blockchain set in stone use Ethereum. We have the ability to adapt to our surroundings with the help of proposals.
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Nobody has presented data or research that supports the efficacy of this change. Alternatively, data has been provided showcasing exactly where inflation is running rampant in the network.
This is a transparent attempt to manipulate price action in the name of deflation by further removing the incentivize to vote to secure the network.
I’ve noticed everyone is conveniently ignoring this question;
How many times do voter rewards have to be reduced from the fixed & planned schedule to offset excessive inflation caused by other aspects of the network, and what is this going to do to the longterm security of the network?
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Thank you dom for the update
8yearsgang
The one thing that is clear from this discussion is Scott wants his neuron unlocked asap lol
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how did this come back to me?! My neuron is not dissolving by the way. I just think 5 is more attractive than 8 and I’d honestly prefer 3 years max because 3 is the universal number. My neuron is for my son
I want to highlight:
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There are many folks who agree and disagree in this thread and in the wider forum. They manage to do it in a way which is contructive and invites others to participate.
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ICP is a protocol. One is free to talk about it ANYWHERE. This is just one such place. It is a bit unfair to want to engage in this community because of its thoughtfulness and then hate the active management, please respect the work to get such thoughtfulness.
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Despite the clear snarkiness of your comment, it is not being removed because it does not cross the line of ad hominem and other attacks. To me this as YET ANOTHER example of moderators who accept snakiness and criticism as a way to keep the standards of removal high.
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Great reply Diego!!!
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This is not correct, voting rewards are way more significant, see Circulation - ICP Dashboard. Node provider rewards obviously depend on the ICP price, but in the last months it’s been approx 250k ICP per month, so 3M ICP / year. The voting rewards are currently at 7% of supply, so approx 35M ICP (in maturity) distributed per year.
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Thanks for the stats! Interesting…looks like historically ~1/10 as much for node providers than for governance rewards. Awesome charts.
99% of this thread has been a thoroughly enjoyable, eye-opening and entertaining read. Thanks to all those who were able to advance their opinions whilst remaining civil.
A grand-fathering option for current 8 year gang appeals, not least because it would encompass my own somewhat measly neuron.
But as others have stated, some in-depth modelling would be fantastic to assist those of us who want to ensure they back what is right for the network long term and try to balance their own targets.
I firmly believe a middle-ground can be determined. I firmly believe in ICP.
Kudos to mods on here too.
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Is there a real economist at dfinity? Is there economic analysis and simulations to justify these parameter changes?
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Man…if Ethereum is set in stone, where does that put Bitcoin? 
As recently as September 2022 Ethereum managed to pull off one of the largest carbon elimination events in history with the Merge, and has had two significant upgrades since via social consensus hard forks, so maybe it’s not time to put it out to pasture just yet when we’re having a hard time implementing voted for proposals that were ratified a couple of years ago. (And I’m the biggest ICP fan you’re going to find around).
This brings up some interesting consensus topics as we try to decide these things. We don’t really have a fork option for better or worse, so we’re all in the same locked rooms and have to find a way to all get out together one way or another. Thanks to everyone who remembered to use deodorant.
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@dominicwilliams and All,
Here is another someone crazy proposal to reduce inflation 
Have voluntary token burn mechanisms. Sounds crazy but with the right incentives people will burn their ICP
Step into the realm of voluntary token burn mechanisms, where the line between madness and brilliance blurs into a frenzy of excitement! Imagine a world where every burnt ICP sparks a flame of change, where the ordinary becomes extraordinary with just the flicker of a virtual bonfire.
Step 1: Burn your ICP
Embark on an adventure like no other as you journey to a website teeming with possibilities! Choose your destiny as you select from a myriad of options, from igniting a tiny spark with a fraction of ICP to unleashing the blaze with a golden inferno! Every burn fuels the flames of progress!
People go to a website or within NNS itself as see options such as:
Burn 0.0001 ICP → NNS Wallet gets 1 white star and 1 stick
Burn 0.001 ICP → NNS Wallet gets 2 white star and 2 sticks
Burn 0.01 ICP → NNS Wallet gets 3 white star and 3 sticks
Burn 0.1ICP → NNS Wallet gets 4 white star and 4 sticks
Burn 1 ICP → NNS Wallet gets 1 GOLDEN STAR ! and 1 branch
Burn Custom Amount → NNS Wallet gets n number of stars and sticks
Step 2: Huge Bonfire Celebration!
Witness the spectacle of a lifetime as we gather around the roaring bonfire at the dawn of each month! Feel the heat as participants from around the globe unite to toss their sticks and branches into the fiery abyss! With each click, the blaze grows fiercer, fueled by the collective passion of the community!
-Only wallets with sticks/branches can participate but anyone can go to the bonfire to celebrate!
-Whatever sticks are left over, get automatically burned OR they can save n number of sticks for a later bonfire.
-At the top of the website are a sorted list of wallet profiles that participated the burn this month for recognition!
-At the bottom of the website is a chat for people to hang out (like an OpenChat hangout)
Step 3: Reward
Prepare to reap the rewards of your fiery devotion as 95% of the ICP in the burn wallets is consumed by the flames of change! But wait, what about the other 5%?! One lucky soul shall emerge from the ashes as the recipient of 5% of the ICP, chosen by fate itself!
The wallets with stars get more valuable as they are more rare. These stars are permanently etched to that wallet’s identity and of course can get sold for a higher price of IDGeek. Behold the birth of a new era, where stars shine brighter than ever before! These celestial treasures, etched into the very fabric of your wallet’s identity, become coveted symbols of prestige and power!
Of course there could be other incentive such as NFTs or a ticket to meet Dominic Williams haha.
The rewards and number of winner can very month to month.
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@dominicwilliams I think we should try alternatives that are less disruptive to current staking participants first like the periodic confirmation of following neurons mentioned above, then if required we can come back to this tokenomics change you propose.
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I am interesting to hear the official opinion of Dfinity and IC foundations, about what their going to decide for their 8y governance neurons.
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@dominicwilliams if there’s no new top up from 8 year neurons, this included the autostake in that “top up” ?
If NOT is included, then the only option to make my ICP grow in that neuron will
Be with this autostake function? Or am able also, not to auto stake, but have maturity available and later on, opt to stake that maturity? Thanks
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